Did Jesus die for everyone?

[OneLight]

To answer the question of the word "whosoever", I present the following proof.

John 11:25-26

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

"whosoever":

πᾶς (G3956)

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types

Since you and I have a personal relationship with God, it is the individual meaning that is spoken of here.

[OneLight]

God has stated many times in scripture the He would like every person to believe in Him and come to salvation. With this love for us, He not only sent His son into the world to die for the sins of all, but has also sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, which in turn, should lead sinners to salvation. What seems to be a point that you have trouble with is that people have to choose to listen and believe. This choice to do so is what I call free will. I am free to accept the work of God in my life or ignore it. I choose to listen to the conviction of my sins by the Holy Spirit, or I choose to harden my heart and turn away. A choice has to be made by me in order for me to be saved. I do nothing but accept what God have given freely to all, for scripture tells us Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

After one has chosen to accept the work of the Holy Spirit, and repents of their sin, His Spirit lives in them and begins the changing of their heart and mind. The Holy Spirit will not change anyone without their consent, meaning that He has to first be accepted into the lives of those seeking salvation.

God has said that anyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved (Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13). Not everyone will choose to call on the name of the Lord. This choice has to be from the one calling, not the one being called on.

I read that scripture from Ephesians and it says to me that I am saved by grace, this is accomplished by the infussion of faith, which is not of myself, it is the gift of GOD, not of my choosing HIM (a work) lest I should boast that I chose HIM. Which walks hand in hand with the statement at the start of that chapter where it states (twice) HE "made" me alive when I was dead, and HE "made" me to sit in high places.

Although I do not assertain that "made" in any way infers "forced".

I read this verse as follows:

For by grace you have been saved - Through an unearned and unmerited favor from God, God gave us His Son when we were sinners (Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.) for the purpose of saving us sinners.

through faith - I have to accepted, and believe in, the work that Jesus did for all mankind when He died on the cross for the sins of the world, rose again after three days and is now sitting at the right hand of God. (Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.)

and that not of yourselves - there is nothing that I could do that would take place of what Jesus did for me, for I can not save myself.

it is the gift of God - John 3:16-17 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

not of works - I can not earn my salvation through anything I do. Salvation comes by believing (having faith in) the works of Jesus.

lest anyone should boast - Boasting that I am saved because I have faith in Jesus would nullify salvation, for it is the work that Jesus did that saves, not my faith in him. I have faith that my car will stop when I apply my brakes, but it is the brakes that stop the car, not my faith.

It is sad that you think that our faith in Him is a work.

As for the first part of the chapter, it is the result of salvation. If we do not accept salvation, God will not "make" us sit in high places or to be one with Christ.

That is one of the reasons there will always be a difference in interpretation of scripture. To me, it is by the unmeritted favor of GOD that I was given faith.

Although, I will never really comprehend the idea of dead people giving themselves life. If it says "HE MADE US ALIVE WHO WERE DEAD..." I am inclined to think HE did it.

But hey, this has been a debate for thousands of years and will be until we are gone.

I agree! He did!! But tell me, if someone does not believe in God, do they still have life in Christ? That is why I brought up this scripture:

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

You see, Brother, one MUST have faith first in order to have all that God has for him, for without faith in God, what life is there???

I edited this to include that before we accepted salvation, we had simple faith that God exists, through creation, for God made himself known to everyone through His creation, as stated in Romans 1:19-20 - "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,". After salvation, this faith, like everything else in us, is changed by the studying of His word, the bible, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Yet, even though He made Himself known to everyone, not all accept Him, which is what Romans 1 is speaking of. The fact that we have to accept Him and that we are just not chosen by Him is seen in this scripture, where it states "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." :

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

[BlindSeeker]

The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"?

All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given.

The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings?

Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS?

The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come)

First, let

[larryt]

I agree! He did!! But tell me, if someone does not believe in God, do they still have life in Christ?

I do not believe that the unregenerate man has any "life in Christ." He is spiritually dead.

That is why I brought up this scripture:

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

You see, Brother, one MUST have faith first in order to have all that God has for him, for without faith in God, what life is there???

God must do a work in us before we can do anything.

LT

[kross]

God has stated many times in scripture the He would like every person to believe in Him and come to salvation. With this love for us, He not only sent His son into the world to die for the sins of all, but has also sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, which in turn, should lead sinners to salvation. What seems to be a point that you have trouble with is that people have to choose to listen and believe. This choice to do so is what I call free will. I am free to accept the work of God in my life or ignore it. I choose to listen to the conviction of my sins by the Holy Spirit, or I choose to harden my heart and turn away. A choice has to be made by me in order for me to be saved. I do nothing but accept what God have given freely to all, for scripture tells us Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

After one has chosen to accept the work of the Holy Spirit, and repents of their sin, His Spirit lives in them and begins the changing of their heart and mind. The Holy Spirit will not change anyone without their consent, meaning that He has to first be accepted into the lives of those seeking salvation.

God has said that anyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved (Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13). Not everyone will choose to call on the name of the Lord. This choice has to be from the one calling, not the one being called on.

I read that scripture from Ephesians and it says to me that I am saved by grace, this is accomplished by the infussion of faith, which is not of myself, it is the gift of GOD, not of my choosing HIM (a work) lest I should boast that I chose HIM. Which walks hand in hand with the statement at the start of that chapter where it states (twice) HE "made" me alive when I was dead, and HE "made" me to sit in high places.

Although I do not assertain that "made" in any way infers "forced".

I read this verse as follows:

For by grace you have been saved - Through an unearned and unmerited favor from God, God gave us His Son when we were sinners (Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.) for the purpose of saving us sinners.

through faith - I have to accepted, and believe in, the work that Jesus did for all mankind when He died on the cross for the sins of the world, rose again after three days and is now sitting at the right hand of God. (Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.)

and that not of yourselves - there is nothing that I could do that would take place of what Jesus did for me, for I can not save myself.

it is the gift of God - John 3:16-17 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

not of works - I can not earn my salvation through anything I do. Salvation comes by believing (having faith in) the works of Jesus.

lest anyone should boast - Boasting that I am saved because I have faith in Jesus would nullify salvation, for it is the work that Jesus did that saves, not my faith in him. I have faith that my car will stop when I apply my brakes, but it is the brakes that stop the car, not my faith.

It is sad that you think that our faith in Him is a work.

As for the first part of the chapter, it is the result of salvation. If we do not accept salvation, God will not "make" us sit in high places or to be one with Christ.

That is one of the reasons there will always be a difference in interpretation of scripture. To me, it is by the unmeritted favor of GOD that I was given faith.

Although, I will never really comprehend the idea of dead people giving themselves life. If it says "HE MADE US ALIVE WHO WERE DEAD..." I am inclined to think HE did it.

But hey, this has been a debate for thousands of years and will be until we are gone.

I agree! He did!! But tell me, if someone does not believe in God, do they still have life in Christ? That is why I brought up this scripture:

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

You see, Brother, one MUST have faith first in order to have all that God has for him, for without faith in God, what life is there???

I edited this to include that before we accepted salvation, we had simple faith that God exists, through creation, for God made himself known to everyone through His creation, as stated in Romans 1:19-20 - "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,". After salvation, this faith, like everything else in us, is changed by the studying of His word, the bible, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Yet, even though He made Himself known to everyone, not all accept Him, which is what Romans 1 is speaking of. The fact that we have to accept Him and that we are just not chosen by Him is seen in this scripture, where it states "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." :

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I agree with all of that talk about faith. The only question between what you believe and what I believe is where does that faith come from? Us or HIM?

As far as 2Peter;

If you read this sentence, "shimp fishermen are long suffering towards sea turtles, not wishing that any should perish but all should come to salvation" who would you say they want to come to salvation?

Since the "US" in 2Peter are the ones he wrote the letter to, it refers to those of the faith. He does not change the subject of the discussion, therefore the subject that precedes the comma is the subject after the comma.

Peter is making a point that GOD is long suffering with the vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22) on behalf of those of the faith. In fact, he is stating that JESUS will not come again until the last of the vessels of glory (Romans 9:23) are saved. If JESUS had come 20 years ago, I would have died in my sins, but CHRIST continues to put up with the wicked until every person whose name is in the book of life is saved.

There is no point in this letter where the subject changes from "those of like faith" to "everyone".

[BlindSeeker]

I edited this to include that before we accepted salvation, we had simple faith that God exists, through creation, for God made himself known to everyone through His creation, as stated in Romans 1:19-20 - "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,". After salvation, this faith, like everything else in us, is changed by the studying of His word, the bible, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Yet, even though He made Himself known to everyone, not all accept Him, which is what Romans 1 is speaking of. The fact that we have to accept Him and that we are just not chosen by Him is seen in this scripture, where it states "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

God has given every man enough faith to embrace His word and to recieve a love for the truth that they might be saved.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as

God hath dealt

to every man

the measure of faith

.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

.

.

[traveller]

The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"?

All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given.

The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings?

Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS?

The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come)

First, let

[kross]

I edited this to include that before we accepted salvation, we had simple faith that God exists, through creation, for God made himself known to everyone through His creation, as stated in Romans 1:19-20 - "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,". After salvation, this faith, like everything else in us, is changed by the studying of His word, the bible, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Yet, even though He made Himself known to everyone, not all accept Him, which is what Romans 1 is speaking of. The fact that we have to accept Him and that we are just not chosen by Him is seen in this scripture, where it states "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

God has given every man enough faith to embrace His word and to recieve a love for the truth that they might be saved.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as

God hath dealt

to every man

the measure of faith

.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

.

First of all, your understanding of "every man" seems to ignor that Paul is referring to "every man amoung you" Meaning every man amoung those he wrote the letter to.

Your second scripture states they did not "Recieve" the love of truth. Recieve it from whom?

[kross]

The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"?

All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given.

The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings?

Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS?

The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come)

First, let

[dcampsart]

I edited this to include that before we accepted salvation, we had simple faith that God exists, through creation, for God made himself known to everyone through His creation, as stated in Romans 1:19-20 - "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,". After salvation, this faith, like everything else in us, is changed by the studying of His word, the bible, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Yet, even though He made Himself known to everyone, not all accept Him, which is what Romans 1 is speaking of. The fact that we have to accept Him and that we are just not chosen by Him is seen in this scripture, where it states "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

God has given every man enough faith to embrace His word and to recieve a love for the truth that they might be saved.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as

God hath dealt

to every man

the measure of faith

.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

.

First of all, your understanding of "every man" seems to ignor that Paul is referring to "every man amoung you" Meaning every man amoung those he wrote the letter to.

Your second scripture states they did not "Recieve" the love of truth. Recieve it from whom?

This is why I stated in another thread that I'm in the middle road... for now... between God's will and man's will.

I remember back when, through mysterious and amazing events, I was powerfully "drawn" or "dragged" to the knowledge of God and His salvation. Up until that point in my life, I NEVER once thought of Him. I never once even CARED to come to Him. In fact, I thought Christians were Dudley-Do-Rights who were entirely off their rocker. So....... I realize, somewhat now, how depraved I was. At the time, I definitely fit the bill for there is none righteous... none who seeketh God. I didn't understand and I was most assuredly going astray!

I have to wonder then whether or not I had anything to do with my eventual conversion. I for one believe I was CALLED. After reading a lot of debates at WCF about this topic, I have been thinking... could I have resisted, left the preacher's office and went on my way because it was still up to ME? Possibly but the magnetic pull was so strong!

I heard a preacher tell a story once about a man who came to his services for awhile who seemed to progressively show signs of conviction. At first, the man was fidgeting in his pew at the invitation to give his heart to the Lord. At other times, he would sweat profusely and look very frightened. Lastly, the man was seen digging his fingernails into the back of the pew in front of him as if trying to hang on and not go forward. In fact, he said the man left scratches in the wood revealing how hard he was fighting! I'd be lying if I said I could remember whether or not the man ever gave in and accepted the CALL!

Let's say he never did give in. Would that prove that God was calling him because he was one of the elect? Could his will have resisted God to the point of his being forever lost?