GandalfTheWise

As a start to a response, here's a quick initial word study on the word "works" as used in this verse. ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει, καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι· (SBL GNT John 14:12 from biblegateway.com) The word works used here is τὸ ἔργον. From 3rd Edition BDAG (the Bauer-Danker Greek Lexicon), the summary of this word's usage is as follows. That which displays itself in activity of any kind ("deed" or "action"). in contrast to rest (e.g. in word and deed) manifestation or practical proof deed or accomplishment (of God, or Jesus, or humans) That which one does as a regular activity ("work", "occupation", "task") That which is brought into being by work ("product", "undertaking", "work") Something having to do with something under discussion ("thing", "matter") Roughly speaking, it is a fairly generic word used to describe actions that people or God take (whether routine or extraordinary or miraculous) and the results of those actions. It can be used of both positive and negative things. It occurs 169 times in the UBS4 version of the GNT. Here are the occurrences in the Gospel of John. 3:19-21, 4:34, 5:20, 5:36, 6:28-29, 7:3, 7:7, 7:21, 8:39, 8:41, 9:3-4, 10:25, 10:32-33, 10:37-38, 14:10-12, 15:24, 17:4. In addition, I John 3:8,12,18; II John 1:11; III John 1:10; and Rev 2:2,5,6,19,22,23,26; 3: 1,2,8,15 (to round out the Johannine books). Here are some examples (with English translations chosen to highlight the Greek word): but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19 NIV But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God. John 3:21 NKJV. But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. John 5:36 NKJV Jesus answered and said to them, “I did one work, and you all marvel. John 7:21 NKJV Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. John 8:39 NKJV Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” John 10:33 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. I John 3:8 From this quick study, the general sense I have of this word is that it refers to anything and everything that someone might do and that it reflects their character and motivations. It seems to include both mundane everyday activities and actions to typical ministry activities as well as the out of the ordinary and the miraculous.

@JTCI read your post. I really don't know what to say except hang in there.

I think the key issue is that some people who are vegan hold to an animal rights view rather than animal welfare. These are very different things. Animal rights activists would not have humans exploit animals in any way. This is basically the view that some (or all) animals have some (or all) of the same rights to life and freedom that human beings have. Many people who support animal welfare (but not animal rights) do not realize that there is a difference and inadvertently end up supporting the extreme animal rights groups. People who support animal welfare (but not rights) would view animals as being different from human beings. There are vegans who do it primarily for the plant based diet. There are those who do it primarily for ideological animal rights reasons.

I've found that often (not always but often) sin, addictions, compulsive behaviors, and other such things are really symptoms of something deeper. Until God deals with the root cause (or causes), the symptoms will continue to be there. For example, consider someone with a broken leg in a cast. I could condemn them for not being a very graceful dancer or not being able to go jogging with me. No amount of will power or effort or what I tell them is going to make up for having a leg in a cast. Once the leg heals and the cast is off, they could get back to dancing and jogging. Or if I have the broken leg, I could condemn myself for not dancing well or jogging enough, but until the cast is off, I won't be able to very well. Spiritually speaking, many of us, through abuse, neglect, spiritual trauma and hurt, spiritual attacks, and other such things, carry some deep wounds and trauma. Some of us carry wounds and "broken legs" from childhood that have never been properly addressed and healed. The symptoms of these things often come out as sin and compulsive behaviors that we never seem able to shake no matter how much will power and repentance we try to summon up. The issue is that God needs to heal us of "the broken leg" so that we can dance again. Sometimes, we unintentionally pile on additional guilt and frustration on people (and ourselves!) because we try to deal with it through our own will power, dedication, commitment, discipline, etc. My wife and I once joined a church in the aftermath of a nasty split. 5 years after the split (and the church was on its 5th senior pastor since the split). It was full of gossip, backbiting, anger, political maneuvering, and it was very unhealthy. It seemed like every other week some type of drama was unfolding. I had never seen anything like this in my life (and never have since then). In hindsight, almost all of the problems stemmed from one simple thing. Many long term members of the church had been deeply wounded and felt betrayed by the pastor during the original split. This pain had turned into bitterness. A few of them (including a couple board members) felt like they could never trust another pastor again and this spread throughout the church. No amount of reasoning, confrontation, or anything was going to do much until God dealt with their pain and unforgiveness toward someone who had left years earlier. The thing is, they had truly and deeply been hurt badly. These were good people that had their church life pulled out from under them and basically been left on their own to deal with it. Unfortunately, a few very influential people (who'd been members for decades) carried a root of unforgiveness and bitterness that spilled over into a lot of people. They (and those of us who joined later) were so focused on the symptoms of the current church turmoil being the "real" problem that nothing could be resolved. Sadly, it took a couple funerals years later (and long after we gave up and left) before the church calmed down. The challenge is that it is not easy to see what this deep root cause is in others (and often ourselves). We need to get to know people and listen a lot. We need to be patient, ask wise questions, and not create more damage. We often need God to give us good discernment about what is and is not the real problem in their lives. We want to make sure that we have the same priorities for "fixing" someone that God does. Sometimes the most obvious and troubling symptoms are not the main thing God wants to work on first. So having said all of this, I'd counsel asking God to give you discernment and wisdom to see what God wants to do in your friend's life. I think there's a good chance that the smoking and drinking were primarily driven by something else. If that "something else" is not addressed, simply stopping the smoking and drinking will leave that "something else" in place and it will manifest itself again in some other undesirable behavior. For example, did she start smoking and drinking because she was lonely and felt that would give her more friends and acceptance? Was she lonely because she feels she's worthless? What happened to make her feel worthless? Was there a time of vulnerability in her life when the enemy used someone (perhaps a parent in a moment of anger) shouting "I wish we'd never have had you" to bury a lie deep into her that she's worthless. I'm NOT saying that is what the case is for your friend! But these are the types of burdens and crippling lies of the enemy that many of us carry hidden within that become broken legs that prevent us from dancing in the freedom God wants us to. I just gave those questions and example to suggest the type of unfolding process and questions it takes to dig deeper into what God really wants to work on. There is a spiritual enemy in the world that wants to embed lies and hurts into our lives to cripple us. It often takes God's light shining in our lives to see it. God wants to heal those broken legs so we can dance and run and jump in freedom before Him.

I'm with @bryan on this one. The article linked to at Tripod primarily criticizes misrepresentation of the Barna research and report. It is not a direct criticism of the Barna work itself. I think the comments and analysis in the Barna link in the OP were reasonable.

I've heard this in a couple of different contexts. These two I would tend to agree with as being something to steer clear of. 1. The first is making excuses or rationalizing why it's okay for us to do something we shouldn't be. Examples: Since everyone else is doing it why shouldn't I do it? Or, that only applies to other people, not me. 2. The second is approaching everything through a filter of "unless it can be proven it a lab, it's cannot be real" type of thinking. From my perspective, science is a method and tool whereby we can learn a lot. However, some people make the assumption that science is the only reliable method for acquiring knowledge and that nothing exists outside the physical universe. However, I do not think that these are adequate reasons to not develop the ability to think logically, systematically, and clearly. If you read the Gospels and Epistles, you will find dialogs and discussions based on logical and thoughtful progressions of ideas. Indeed, Jesus often dealt with those opposing Him by simply pointing out common sense examples of why blind adherence to rules and traditions made no sense. The reality is that all Christians apply some degree of reasoning and common sense. For example, Jesus clearly stated "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Matt 5:29-30 NIV I think it safe to say that virtually all Christians understand that Jesus was not giving a literal command to be followed here. If we believed it was literal, we'd have Christian doctors performing safe amputations as a service to the body of Christ. We all understand that we apply common sense here and say that this is not a literal command to be followed. Even though this could be applied today in some form of rule such as "If you are addicted to viewing porn, it would be better to make yourself blind than to end up in hell", no one takes that verse and applies it that way today. NOR SHOULD THEY! We clearly understand that maiming ourselves does not produce spiritual fruit. Why? Because maiming ourselves physically does not change our heart. Paul addresses something related to this in Galatians regarding those Christians who believed that all Christians must follow the law of Moses and be circumcised. Good spiritual fruit and holiness is a result of being transformed inside by the Holy Spirit, not by creating physical situations around us to slow down the sin. The net result is that we take Matthew 5:29-30 and say that it doesn't mean what it plainly says but that we need to interpret it to find what Jesus really intended us to learn. All Christians apply some degree of rationality and thought to which verses and passages of Scripture apply to us individually and corporately whether they admit it or not. Speaking for myself, I listen most carefully to those people that plainly admit that they do not know everything and lay out the reasons why they believe what certain verses and passages mean and are willing to listen to questions about that. I've been involved in a few groups (one church and one ministry group) where the leaders would basically give their interpretation and then attack any questions with "that's what the Bible says! Don't you believe the Bible?" Both that church and group started getting rather cult-like (and needless to say we left both).

And to put it in a larger context, image Paul and company on leaky boats on the Mediterranean.

I had a college roommate (who became a good lifelong friend and married my wife's best friend) who had played in a rock band in the bar scene before he became a Christian. He's the one who taught me to play "by ear". He had a lot of bad memories tied closely to playing in that band. He needed to get away from playing music for a number of years. I tried to talk him into playing for the worship team at church, but he refused. For a number of years, he'd only worship on the piano or with guitar by himself (or on occasion a small group of people). Years later, God redeemed music for him and he was able to enjoy doing it again without the baggage it used to have for him. I like an eclectic range of genres from hymns to liturgies to classical to celtic/folk to rock to symphonic metal. There's even some hip hop that I was surprised to find I liked. FWIW, (I don't think there are any rules against sharing this info about a link. If so, I'll edit it out.) the station I volunteer for streams (for free) at 97x.fm (WIXL in Madison, WI). The fellow who puts together the playlist does an amazing job at running an eclectic collection of genres and songs. Hundreds of different songs per week, no repeats in a 8 hour period. We have a good local Christian station that targets a more mainstream Christian audience (i.e. married people in their 30s with kids). We intentionally target teens and young adults. For the most part, in any given hour, you will probably hear a few songs you don't like, a few songs you just love, and a few you've never heard before. It's certainly not a fit for everyone's taste in music. Most pastors at our church don't listen to it even though the church sponsors it. But it might be a good resource to be able to listen to a wide range of artists and songs for free that don't get played by most mainstream Christian stations. EDIT[Note that the streaming service we use sometimes messes up the artist/song information. For example, it is NOT Prince's Purple Rain playing at the moment.]

In the OT, especially Psalms, there is extensive reference to music. In reading the Psalms, one can see a wide range of thoughts and emotions being expressed in many different ways. Some Psalms are concrete recitations of historical events. Other Psalms are very symbolic using a lot of imagery. Some are joyful; some are sad; some are dark and painful; some focus on God and His glory; and some focus on the plight of the Psalmist. Sadly, we do not have the music recorded in a concrete manner that allows us to know for sure how these were sung, what the range of music styles might have been, and what instruments were used for them. However, based on the emotions being described, I do not think it out of line to assume that the style and instruments used reflected what was being expressed. For example, I cannot imagine how something like Psalm 51 (David's confession of sin) and Psalm 150 (a call to worship God joyfully) would have been sung to the same tune in the same style on the same instrument. Some of the Psalms do contain some description of instrumentation and its use. For example, Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre,4 praise him with timbrel and dancing, praise him with the strings and pipe,5 praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. (Psalm 150:3-5 NIV) In addition, the historical books contain a few descriptions of worship. I Chron 15 is the story of bringing the ark into Jerusalem. In particular verse 28 gives this description, "So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouts, with the sounding of rams’ horns and trumpets, and of cymbals, and the playing of lyres and harps." (I Chr 15:28 NIV). I am left with the impression in the OT that the music and worship described covers a variety of styles and emotions. The NT does not give much detail about music. I know a few denominations take the lack of mention of musical instruments in the NT to mean that Christians are only allowed to sing music a cappella (that is with voices only and no instruments). But as far as I can tell, most Christians seem to take Psalms and descriptions of OT worship as an example of using both singing and instruments as acceptable. Sometimes guilt and remorse is God's way of convicting us to point out something is wrong. However, sometimes it is an unhealthy consequence of legalism where we've made our Christian walk about following particular rules. I've been involved in music most of my adult life. I'm now doing some volunteer work for a local lower power FM Christian radio station. Most of the music played is definitely from the heavier genres of Christian music. We also stream online (and have people regularly listening around the world including some countries where Christianity is restricted). A couple people mentioned that a few local retail businesses and restaurants in the city tune to our station. My sense is that many songs are individual in nature and that God uses a range of them to touch people at a particular point in their life. A couple that hit me very strongly at low points in my life were "Winds of Change" by Kutless and "Unbreakable" by Fireflight. I remember the first time I heard the Fireflight song was riding in the van with my family and my daughter wanted to listen to her new CD. A few of the lyrics resonated with me and how I was feeling at that time and gave me some much needed encouragement. Sometimes it's hard to just keep going But faith is moving without knowing Can I trust what I can't see To reach my destiny I want to take control but I know better God, I want to dream again Take me where I've never been I want to go there This time I'm not scared Now I am unbreakable, it's unmistakable No one can touch me Nothing can stop me Forget the fear it's just a crutch That tries to hold you back And turn your dreams to dust All you need to do is just trust One of the cool things about being involved with the radio station is the individual testimonies of how God reached out and touched people through particular songs. People hitting the scan button on their car radio and running across a song. Other people seeing a poster for the station and tuning in to hear some song for the first time that affected them. One of our volunteers basically became a Christian after having "randomly" run across the station and started listening to it.

From the eating standpoint, I see no issues with it. My wife and daughter went with an all plant and whole food based diet about a year ago for a number of reasons. We still get our grass fed beef (for me and a family friend we have Sunday supper with every week) from some friends that have a farm. Most of the food we get is either organic or grown locally. We basically avoid processed food products. I don't eat as much meat or dairy as I used to, but I haven't sworn off it. My daughter also avoids products (such as chocolate) that have a bad reputation for exploitation of people in the production of it around the world. I've done some research and my sense is that avoiding processed foods (high in salt, corn syrup, and preservatives) is a good idea. Ultimately, the goal of processed foods is easy mass production, distribution, storage, and profits. Increasing salt content of products causes them to absorb more water (and weight) meaning you can put less product in a half-pound container since it has more water. The stuff my wife and daughter gave me to read about plant based diets is not overwhelmingly compelling to me. I downloaded the data from the China Project to analyze it myself. I really don't see the case for absence of meat correlating to health in that data. But my sense is that eating more fiber based natural plants and plant products is generally healthier than the typical western diet that includes tons of processed foods. The bottom line is that they are both feeling better (especially my daughter who has lost about 20 pounds in the past year and is sleeping better). On the other hand, I've lost over 50 pounds in the past couple of years mostly due to getting a lot of stress out of my life more so than a diet change. Now, from the ideological standpoint, there are a couple things about vegan views to be aware of. Some are animal rights advocates in contrast to animal welfare advocates. Animal rights advocates push for the idea that animals should have rights in the same sense as humans having rights. Animal welfare advocates push for humane treatment and good stewardship practices. My sense is that the vast majority of Christians are animal welfare advocates to some degree. However, the vegans who are animal rights advocates would ban all meat eating (and other things) due to violating the rights of animals to not be killed and eaten or used by humans. Biblically speaking, the disciples and Jesus ate fish. For example, John 6 (in the story of the feeding of 5000) there is verse 11 "Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks,and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish." If Jesus had been an animal rights advocate in the sense that some vegans are, this would have been a perfect teaching point to the disciples about not eating fish. However, the fish were distributed along with the bread. In addition, there is no mention of a dietary change during the Passover (which by the Law of Moses included a lamb). If a dietary change eliminating meat was going to happen, it seems this would have been the ideal time to do it by changing the Passover rules. In first Corinthians (addressing the issue if it was okay to eat meat from an animal sacrificed to an idol), Paul writes, "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience". If there was an ethical issue with eating meat (likely from bulls, cows, goats, or similar), Paul would have likely raised that as an issue and simply told them not to eat any meat rather than discussing in detail about the source of the meat being from sacrifices or not. There is also Peter's vision in Acts 10 where Peter is explicitly shown animals to eat. My sense is that the Bible has explicit examples that show Jesus and the disciples eating meat and not explicitly condemning eating meat of various types. In addition, the OT has the practice of sacrifices at the temple in which the person bringing the sacrifice and the priest both would eat meat from the sacrifice. Also, the simple fact of the promised land being constantly referred to as a land flowing with milk and honey suggests that animal products were considered a normal and desirable part of a diet. The bottom line is that there is no explicit mention of animal rights (as contrasted to animal welfare) as a moral imperative. However, to me, a key point in this is that often when eating meat in the Bible, the person usually had some type of connection with the animal. There is a huge difference (in my opinion) between an agrarian society where people do their own killing and processing of animals that they raised or hunted themselves, and have some degree of respect for the animal in contrast to our frankly awful modern mass production system where people have no clue where meat comes from. This is a contradictory type of thing, but I grew up in a rural area where many people lived on farms and most people hunted to put meat on the table and viewed killing as a solemn thing that was not done lightly. These are people who would kill animals for meat but be infuriated at poachers or hunters who killed deer purely for getting a nice set of antlers to mount. Also, one of the surest ways to be disrespected (at least where I grew up) was to become known as a farmer or a person that mistreated animals. In my opinion, meat eating in the Bible was largely associated with hunting, fishing, or agriculture where there was a close personal involvement with the animals and a keen awareness of what was being done. I think that there is a difference between that and what we have in the U.S. (and other countries) today where people can walk into a store and pick up a clean sanitized package. If a Christian has strong views about the treatment of animals and has severe qualms about eating meat or other animal products or using animal products, I don't think they should eat them or use them. I don't think other Christians should be obnoxious about it either (and do things like waving a bacon cheeseburger in their face figuratively or literally) and should be respectful about it. I think that the converse holds as well.

You phrased that well. That's precisely my point and question. I had the *impression* (which is why I am asking clarifying questions and being rather tenacious about this issue in this thread) that some here might be counseling everyone in a second marriage (which occurred after conversion, having had kids together, and now been married for decades) to get an annulment, separation, or to in some way to immediately end the second the marriage. And that not doing it is proof of being in open rebellion against God. To me, something simply does not add up when we put Jane in a position whereby having had an abortion and not married as a teenager would allow her to marry John without any issue. Her having taken the much harder road (before being a Christian) to keep her child and raise him and find a good father for him (and having then committed to a life long marriage) being considered a continuing sin whereas abortion and fleeing responsibility would not be considered a continuing sin, something just does not add up here. I used to have very strong views on divorce (much like some articulated on this thread). However, when faced with the reality that my views on divorce were leading me to the conclusion that John and Jane raising 4 kids was a more sinful lifestyle than if they were raising 3 kids, I realized something was amiss with my views on divorce. This is why I try to understand the historical context of Jesus' and Paul's words and what the spirit of the law (not just the letter) is meant to be. If the spirit of the law is meant to be strong stable marriages are God's intention for humanity, there is a place for forgiveness and reconciliation in the church for some in second marriages. If the spirit of the law is meant to be that the first person we ever have physical intimacy with is the only person we are ever allowed to have relations with (until they die) and be married to, then there is no recourse but for every Christian in any type of second relationship to immediately break it off.

Could you please clarify this response? I apologize if my question was not clear. What do John and Jane need to do today to be forgiven and get right with God?

Many years ago, I knew a Christian couple with 4 kids. I'll call them John and Jane (should some day I decide to use my real name here). Jane had become pregnant in HS, married the guy, and kept the child. A few years later she was divorced and never saw the guy after that. She was a single mother for years and then met John. In their early 30s, they both became Christians. I met them in their 40s as solid Christians. It wasn't until years later until we were sitting around talking that Jane mentioned her past. So, what would Jesus have me do? Confront John and Jane in love that she and John were both adulterers, the 3 kids they had together were bastards, and that they should immediately separate? What part of her past is covered by the blood of Jesus? All of it? Part of it? What does repentance from adultery look like in this situation? This is the reason why I try to diligently seek to understand the full meaning and intent of scripture AND how to apply it. John and Jane now have a healthy solid marriage and were raising their kids well. Fast forward from when I knew them and they've been married now for close to 40 years. Sorry, but "Jesus says THEY ARE ADULTERERS IN SIN" is a nice simple statement to make to accuse them, BUT how should other Christians treat John and Jane and their kids? What would you say that scripture commands them to do? Do we shun them? Do we kick them out of church? We all come to Christ with a ton of baggage. What should people with this type of baggage do about it? What do John and Jane need to do in order to be forgiven and get right with God? How should other Christians treat them and what should other Christians tell them to do?

I've been an analyst professionally so I've conducted surveys and analyzed numbers before. One challenge in this study is that no distinction is made about whether divorces occur before or after conversion. The study also alludes to numbers showing atheists are more likely to cohabit and not marry which means that it is difficult to directly compare the numbers. Anecdotally, I think the divorce numbers among serious evangelicals are probably lower than indicated, but still way too high. A few months ago, we had a small reunion in another state at our old church. It was a small church, and after about 25 years, about half a dozen couples got together for the first time we'd seen each other in ages. As the men were sitting at the table, I realized that we had 6 of us there that had each been married for over 30 years, had kept regular jobs, raised our families, and to put it bluntly, just hung in there doing the right thing for decades. Frankly, I felt very good to be included in such a group of Godly men. In hindsight, as we caught up on news and other people, there were very few divorces over the past 25 years among our old circles of friends. There were a couple people who'd gotten caught up in similar situations to what the OP describes of one partner just leaving, but those seemed to be the exceptions. It's easy to point the finger at individuals and simply say it's sin. But, as a deeper question, the marriages that ended in divorce really didn't seem any different than those of us still together. Going back 25 years ago, I'd have never guessed which ones would have ended in divorce. These weren't people that were on the fringes of church. From what I could tell, someone didn't wake up one morning and suddenly decide to leave. This was something that had taken root and started growing over time. I wonder what could have been done earlier to help prevent these things. The question I have is how do we as Christians help support each other to keep our marriages strong and healthy? I'm convinced God's plan and desire is for strong healthy marriages and not just merely avoiding divorce.

To have childlike trust, confidence, and faith in our Father is part of our calling as Christians. However, to exclusively think like a child (or to not think at all) is an entirely different matter. I have never met a Christian that did not apply some type of interpretation and explanation to particular verses and passages in scripture as to why or why not they don't apply today. For example, Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. Exodus 35:3 AV. I don't know any Christians who believe those of us who live in Wisconsin should turn off our furnaces every sabbath day during the winter because it's a sin to have them on. I don't know any Christians who refuse to start their automobiles on the sabbath because that would be starting a fire (via the gas burning in the engine). We look at this verse and say it applied only to the Israelites and not us. Many Christians take Exodus 20:13 ("Thou shalt not kill.") and interpret it to mean "except in self-defense or as capital punishment or in a just cause in warfare" or point out that it most likely should have been translated as "Thou shalt not murder." The reality is that we all apply interpretation to some degree in order to discern what indeed is what is pleasing to God. I choose to take this very seriously and study as diligently as possible so as to do it with as much discernment and wisdom as possible to determine what is pleasing to God. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. II Tim 2:15 AV When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. I Cor 13:7 AV For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:12-14 AV

This is a topic that I have many more questions than I do answers. For me, the deepest question is how closely is marriage (as we practice it in the 21st century U.S.) related to marriage as practiced in 1st century Israel or 1st century Corinth? To some extent, marriage in the 1st century was somewhat akin to a business relationship between two families where the marriage was arranged. To some extent, this was a commitment placed upon the couple by their families. It is interesting that many of Paul's comments about marriage (in I Cor 7) are then followed by comments reflecting some people's condition of being a slave or free before resuming more comments on marriage. This suggests to me that to some extent Paul had in mind the idea of people being subject to arranged marriages in addition to our idea of marriage as being purely voluntary for love. In the Gospels, Jesus was speaking to people who were subject to the law of Moses. I think any interpretation and application of these scriptures should provide some insights as to the similarities to 1st century marriage (to some extent arranged) and 21st century marriage (primarily for "love") as well as the differences. If the church today took Jesus' and Paul's comments on marriage as seriously as we claim to, many more Christians might remain single and never consider being married or might even consider getting separated so as to focus more totally on service to God. But in reality, we tend to gloss over the recommendation that being single is better and most of us get married and live a married life. For me there is the letter of the law which appears to be quite clear about marriage being for life with no remarriage allowed. However, there is also for me the nagging question of what is the spirit of this law intended to be with marriage as we have implemented it today? And what is God's intended penalty to be for those who break it? To be honest, I am torn. A part of me is that we are doing ourselves in the church a disservice by cheapening marriage to be a thing of convenience and not appropriately honoring those who've been married to decades to our first spouse. (A friend who is a pastor who conducted my oldest daughter's wedding noted to me that her wedding was somewhat rare in that both sets of parents and all sets of grandparents were all still on their first marriage. Happily this was true for my second daughter's marriage as well.) A part of me also does not want to be a pharisee with rock in hand when Jesus says "whoever is without sin cast the first stone." The balancing act between legalism (here are the rules to mindlessly follow because I am a good pharisee) and license (God forgives everything) to walk in Christian liberty as well as follow God's leading for particular life situations can be a challenging one.

I'll pass on the words I once heard from someone who went through a lot. I once had the privilege of spending some time at a retreat in a small group with an old (in his late 70s or 80s) missionary. Over his life, his work in Africa (in the 1930s and 40s) and later Europe resulted in thousands of new churches being started. As a child, he and his sibling had a single mother. She had reached the point of having no money and no means of supporting them anymore and had decided to put the kids into an orphanage. He remembers being dressed in their best clothes, the car arriving to pick them up, and his mother deciding at the last moment that somehow, no matter what it took, God would get them through it, and decided to keep the children with her. Before he and his wife left for the mission field, they lost their first child, in their arms by the side of the road where the car they were in had broken down on the way to a hospital. Reflecting back on this, he said he decided that he was not going to hell over a mystery. He said he could have blamed God and become angry, but he decided to trust that there was a bigger picture he could not see. He and his wife spent many years alone out in the bush and jungle of Africa enduring a lot of physical hardships. Years later, he became a mentor and leader to many young pastors and missionaries. When they were going through struggles, he'd encourage them with "just hang in there." One thing he said that stuck with me was this. The greater the trials and problems you are going through, it is likely the greater the things that God is preparing you to do.

30 some years ago, I had the privilege of being able to spend some time in a small group of campus ministers with a man in his late 70s or early 80s who had spent most of his life in Africa as a missionary. He told stories of the miracles He had seen over a couple decades in the mission field. He struck me as a credible man of integrity that was not prone to exaggeration or lying. Frankly, it was book of Acts type of stuff. This was not somebody who spent his time speaking in stadiums or to large groups but spent many years out in the bush and jungle where missionaries had never been before. He then spent the later years of his life as a mentor and leader for younger missionaries and pastors. He was a popular preacher and in demand as a speaker when he was older, but I had the sense he much preferred being in smaller groups. He wasn't describing miracles for the sake of miracles and glory, but rather people dying of incurable diseases being healed, a man (who later became the first pastor to his tribe) in an unreached tribe seeing a vision telling him to go find the white man they were all afraid of and hiding from, and things like that. Again, 30 years ago so my memory is a bit hazy on details, but I'm relating the general tone of things correctly. In my mind, arguing about whether or not people like this are missionaries, or apostles vs Apostles, or whatever we argue about what to call them, is secondary to God actually calling and sending people out with the gospel and confirming it with His sovereign hand on them.

I think one of our first steps in any such situation is take things to God. Then He can give guidance as to what to do in terms of reconciliation, confession, and restitution. Sometimes the other person may need some space and reconciliation may take some time. I don't think we are to put our relationship with God on hold. For example, let's take something like child abuse. Say some parent did this for years and ended up estranged from their child. The parent becomes a Christian years later. In my opinion, such a person should seriously seek out God's guidance for what to do to apologize (and in a way that puts no pressure on the child). In such a situation, the child might not want to interact with the parent for months or years or ever. Reconciliation might not be possible for a long time. I doubt that God's intent is that the parent cannot approach God until reconciliation is complete.

I think God's means of drawing us to Him are quite varied. Over the years, I've heard many testimonies from people that give a wide range of reasons why they first started looking for God and found Him. Some people hit rock bottom in life due to addiction or other things and cried out for help. Other people simply responded the first time they heard the gospel message. I think that key to all of the testimonies is that being drawn to God eventually resulted in a change in life. Many people talk about how they became aware of God's presence inside of them as a result of this process. The word draw in John 6:44 (ἑλκύω) is also used in John 12:32, 18:10, 21:6, 21:11, Acts 16:19, 21:30, and James 2:6. It seems to be a fairly strong word more akin to drag or haul or attract rather than the more subtle entice or invite. However, I am hesitant to pull out this verse completely on its own absent of context. John 6:44 should be understood in the context of the rest of the passage. Jesus was speaking to those who had been fed via a miracle and wanted to make Jesus King by force. They followed Him across the lake and found Him. In my opinion, Jesus was differentiating between those who were flocking to Him for the signs, novelty, seeing Him as a conquering Messiah who would overthrow the Romans, and a promise of bread from heaven, but who had no real interest in Him (beyond improving their lot in life) and those who God was drawing to Him to be spiritually changed. The end of this passage shows the net result that many who He was speaking those words to and had been following Him quit doing so. The whole idea of God's drawing someone seems to be related to Him pulling them out of a concern for the physical world and into a concern for the spiritual world. Speaking for myself, the state of my spiritual walk is less related to answered prayers than it is to the simple consistent spiritual disciplines of prayer, meditation, bible study, and being with other Christians. For me, prayer is more about talking with God, getting direction for the day, and enjoying being in His presence rather than asking for things. One of the things I try to remember to consider is whether or not I am asking for the right things. I know one woman who had for years been praying for a husband, and then following a sudden insight from God, realized that she should have been praying and working toward being a better person who would be a better marriage partner themselves. As she related it, God had been trying to get me ready to be a good wife for the man of my dreams and I wasn't listening to Him. I was a mixed up mess who was not ready to get married and I thought marriage would solve my problems.

About 5 to 10 years into my Christian walk, when I was in college (30 odd years ago), I felt that this too was my calling in life. I was quite good at it. Fortunately, God called a halt to my madness through Keith Green's testimony about how he had been mislead as to the role of a NT prophet. I realized I was being little better than the teachers of the law that Jesus condemned for heaping rules and laws on people's heads but not lifting one finger to help them. I was forced to face the fact that I loved my opinion about Truth more than I loved people. I was more concerned with pointing out problems than I was in dedicating myself to helping people overcome them. The bottom line was I had deluded myself that my opinions about what the Bible said were mostly correct and that anyone who disagreed was believing a lie. I was spending my efforts and time trying to make sure people agreed with me in a misguided belief that having the right opinion about every possible biblical and doctrinal question was more important than growing spiritually. I had mistaken zeal and sincerity for spiritual maturity. In hindsight, I was very much a young fool; albeit a sincere and zealous and honest one. I've seen much more spiritual fruit born in my life after I matured and actually became a person from whom the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc.) became the hallmark of how I interacted with people rather than being a know-it-all teacher of the law or pharisee who though he had it all together.

I'd have to go with John. It seemed like he was in a unique supporting role when people needed him. He was one of the three, very close to Jesus, his gospel records much more of Jesus' prayer in the Garden (suggesting perhaps that he was awake longer than the others), probably the only disciple at the cross, first disciple to the tomb, entrusted by Jesus to take care of Mary, seemed to always be along with Peter when many important things were happening. The gospels and epistles in the Johannine tradition are elegant in their simplicity and depth of spiritual insight.

My wife and I made a quick road trip to Columbia, MO to see totality. This worked out to be a real blessing. We called around and found a hotel room the day before. Didn't hit any traffic driving down (and we stayed until Tuesday so no traffic leaving). Found a nice city park with a vacant grassy field on top of a hill a few blocks walk from the hotel. It was pushing 100 degree heat index on Monday so stayed in the AC until it was ready to start. We walked up to the hill and found we were the only ones up there. We just put out our blanket in the shade under a tree and enjoyed it. We had some eclipse glasses and brought along a cheap set of binoculars to project the image onto a piece of tagboard. We tracked the eclipse as it got darker. Then in the last 5 to 10 minutes before totality, the birds were singing and it seemed like twilight. We put on our glasses and watched the last bit of light. We took off the glasses and looked around at the 360 degree sunset/sunrise colors in all directions. A thunderstorm has just gone past in the north so we had both clear skies to see the sunset/sunrise colors as well as clouds with the colors. I then looked up and was able to see the halo of the sun around the moon. It was an amazing sight. We had a bit of high cloud cover so the moon wasn't totally dark. We had about 2 and a half minutes to enjoy it. The temperature also dropped to a cool level and felt comfortable. My wife took a quick 40 second video with her phone of a 360 degree view around us. I'll probably get that online at some point. As it ended and the sun came back out, it was then we realized how dark it had gotten. Some streetlights had turned on. We both thought it was incredible. We're now planning on a big family trip for the next one. 100% totality is an amazing experience. Anything less is cool to see, but actually being in the zone that gets complete coverage creates a few minute experience where the environment around you just changes. For us, it was well worth the 14 to 15 total hours of driving. It was also a nice relaxing road trip for just the two of us.

I'm new myself here on this forum. FWIW, I've been a Christian for upwards of 40 years now. Here's the advice I'd have given myself 40 years ago about walking with God if I could have. 1. You are a unique creation of God meant to reflect His glory in a unique way. There are things you will have in common with all other Christians, but there are some things that will be unique to you. 2. Figure out how you (in your uniqueness) are meant to walk with God. I know some people that have been on the same Bible reading and prayer schedule for decades and been greatly blessed by it. Speaking for myself, I go through definite seasons of my life where one things flows naturally for a time, I grow, I'm blessed by it, and it goes great. But then that season ends and I need to move on to the next one. I once went through a season of reading the Bible through once per month for about 4 or 5 months. On the 5th time through, the one month reading plan slowly fizzled into a 6 month plan and ended up dying out before I finished. I've had seasons of regularly getting up for a few hours of prayer and meditation every morning. After about 6 months, I was simply forcing myself to do it and falling asleep and daydreaming. It took me many years to learn that God made me in a way where I have definite ebbs and flows in my spiritual life where one particular spiritual discipline (e.g. bible reading, prayer, meditation, study, whatever) comes to the forefront for awhile. I've learned to ride the waves so to speak. 3. The Christian life is about being a Christian more than it is about doing things. I spent the first 3 decades of my Christian walk completely worried about my "calling" and what God wanted me to be doing. It's only been the last decade that I've spent more focus on "being" a Christian rather than worrying about a giant spiritual to-do list. I walked in a bondage of always being worried about measuring up to God's standards for ministry and bearing fruit and being found worthy of His calling on my life. About 10 years ago, I finally understood that the big things God had put onto my heart when I was young were not goals or a calling, but rather promises that He would bring about as I walked with Him and grew. Hang in there. I won't say "God's got a great plan for your life, if only you are a good enough Christian", but rather "God's created you to be a unique person meant to walk with Him in a way unique to you. He will show Himself to the world through you in a unique way. Learn to walk with Him. He's a patient and loving Guide and Teacher Who wants to spend time with you and mold you into a unique work of art and treasure."

Note that at the last supper, when Jesus told his disciples that one of them would betray him, they all asked if they were the one. Other than Judas who had already made plans to do so, the rest simply had doubts and worries. It's common for Christians to have feelings of doubt of various types at various times. When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.” They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?” (Matt 26:20-22 NIV) Faith in God is something that grows over time. As we walk with Him daily and see His hand in our lives over months and years, our trust simply grows. Speaking for myself, I found that it was the consistent presence of God in my life over time that really made the biggest different in my outlook on things. This doesn't mean there weren't ups and downs. There were. But it's that the general trend was upwards and onwards over the years. Consistent spiritual disciplines (like bible reading, prayer, meditation, or getting together with other Christians) are what really help us grow. It's sort of like planting a garden. There will be weeds and pests to worry about that spring up at various times. But as long as it is tended and watered and cared for, it will grow and yield a crop.