Communion - Bread and Wine

[anitarose]

We are connected to the Jews through Christ. We are sons of Abraham spiritually. The Jews are physically the sons of Abraham. All who believe and obey Christ have been adopted into the family. The Jews today will not be saved unless they do it through Christ. We need to bring the Jews forward to Christ and not go back with them and try to identify with OT ways. The land of Israel is unimportant. Physically being an Israelite is unimportant. What is important is Christ and all who believe in Him. Christ is for everyone and when you enter into His body you become one with Christ and nothing else (Gal 3:28).

This is a theological trainwreck. I don't even know where to begin...

Be a Berean and study the Scriptures with an open mind....that might help...

[Botz]

Hi Botz,

I only have a few minutes right now but the Passover that was given does not allow for two days but one, according to Lev. 23 on the 14 day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover and on the 15 day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That is what Yeshua did He kept the Passover on the Day His Father told Him, I truly believe the idea of a two day Passover came not from God but from man, it may be a convience for those in different countries than Israel but God put a day for us all and I its my thinking we need to stick to what God said and not man. Rabbinical Judaism has put the two things together and called the Feast Passover making it a seven day feast instead of one day of Passover and seven days of unleavened bread. Man can put whatever convience they wish on the days God calls us to do as He says and the times and days have been modified for mans convience, does that make things right with God? I find this topic really interesting I spent some time looking into it because some of the Jewish folk I know kept telling me it was ok to change things about the feasts, ya know the rabbis, according to the rabbis, that they can change what God wrote, that blew me away when I read the links they gave me about the right to do so! I'll try and get back later!

shalom aleichem,

Mizz

I too am a bit pushed for time today Mizz, but there is still quite a lot to look at in the whole timing of the Passover, and perhaps some of the variations that have crept in over the centuries and been acceptable through rabbinical ruling...I know this side-tracks a little from the thrust of what has been discussed, and whether as Believers we should continue to endorse Communion, or whether celebrating Passover is the way we should be obedient to Scripture....however sometimes these subsidary channels that we follow are necessary to give better clarity.

I understand what the Bible says about the timing of Passover on the fourteenth of Nisan at twilight...this causes a certain dilemma if you understand that the sacrifices were not extended to several days....for two reasons that I can ascertain...

1. As mentioned before, at this time in history, the influx of Jewish people to Jerusalem was phenomenal, and it wasn't physically possible to accomodate all the sacrifices in the time given, therefore it was acceptable to extend the period....I can't find reference to this at the moment, so don't quote me on it, just bear it in mind as a possibility.

2. If the timing was specifically important, how could Jesus share a Passover seder, eating Passover lamb, and at the same time be the Passover Lamb...when He became the Lamb slain for us, at another specific time.... the timing of the lamb they ate at the seder was also acceptable, but would have to have been slain on the 13 Nisan, but eaten that evening which was the start of 14 Nisan, because Jesus was 'slain' on the 14 of Nisan, later that same day....do you see the difficulty.

I am not 100% clear on this by any means, but endeavour to build a clearer picture, and appreciate any teaching or input from anyone who follows this thread.

In Him. Botz

[benjamin-benjamin]

not to hijack the thread i just didn't want to start a new one... so is it generally accepted that it was wine (fermented), not just grape juice...

[other one]

not to hijack the thread i just didn't want to start a new one... so is it generally accepted that it was wine (fermented), not just grape juice...

It was until the mid 1800's when Dr. Welsh discovered a way to pasturize grape juice, that is was possible to store grape juice without some kind of refregeration, and then even just for short periods of time. up until then when you picked a grape, you either had to eat it, make wine out of it, or it would turn itself into vinigar which isn't good to drink.

I don't see how it could have been grape juice.

[anitarose]

not to hijack the thread i just didn't want to start a new one... so is it generally accepted that it was wine (fermented), not just grape juice...

So you know---I don't consider you hijacking the thread...you're still talking about communion.....

[UncleAbee]

OK, now this I have something to comment on.

But, The OT is not for us to actually learn how to perform worship. That is what the NT is for. We learn about God's nature in the OT but we learn the tactics of worship in the NT.

I do not follow your train of thought. How do you learn how to perform worship without the Psalms?

What acts of worship are you getting from Psalms?

The Psalms are one big collection of worship. I am seriously not following your train of thought.

What particular acts of worship does Psalms define? I am not discussing your attitude or behavior in worship but particular acts of or what you actually perform as worship to God.

[UncleAbee]

We are connected to the Jews through Christ. We are sons of Abraham spiritually. The Jews are physically the sons of Abraham. All who believe and obey Christ have been adopted into the family. The Jews today will not be saved unless they do it through Christ. We need to bring the Jews forward to Christ and not go back with them and try to identify with OT ways. The land of Israel is unimportant. Physically being an Israelite is unimportant. What is important is Christ and all who believe in Him. Christ is for everyone and when you enter into His body you become one with Christ and nothing else (Gal 3:28).

This is a theological trainwreck. I don't even know where to begin...

Well......begin somewhere. How is anyone saved outside of Christ? The Jews will not be saved unless they accept Christ unless there is another gospel that Christ taught. Did Christ not command salvation through faith in Him? What did Paul say about salvation in Romans ch 4? I suggest you read the entire chapter. Christ brought all together in one body (Gal 3:26-29). What you physically are, where you physically live, etc. no longer matters. What does matter is your faith in Christ. That's all that matters and it makes us all heirs of Abraham.

[Fez]

OK, now this I have something to comment on.

But, The OT is not for us to actually learn how to perform worship. That is what the NT is for. We learn about God's nature in the OT but we learn the tactics of worship in the NT.

I do not follow your train of thought. How do you learn how to perform worship without the Psalms?

What acts of worship are you getting from Psalms?

The Psalms are one big collection of worship. I am seriously not following your train of thought.

What particular acts of worship does Psalms define? I am not discussing your attitude or behavior in worship but particular acts of or what you actually perform as worship to God.

Ok, can you define worship then? I am as confused as Nebula as to your train of thought here...

[Fez]

We are connected to the Jews through Christ. We are sons of Abraham spiritually. The Jews are physically the sons of Abraham. All who believe and obey Christ have been adopted into the family. The Jews today will not be saved unless they do it through Christ. We need to bring the Jews forward to Christ and not go back with them and try to identify with OT ways. The land of Israel is unimportant. Physically being an Israelite is unimportant. What is important is Christ and all who believe in Him. Christ is for everyone and when you enter into His body you become one with Christ and nothing else (Gal 3:28).

This is a theological trainwreck. I don't even know where to begin...

Well......begin somewhere. How is anyone saved outside of Christ? The Jews will not be saved unless they accept Christ unless there is another gospel that Christ taught. Did Christ not command salvation through faith in Him? What did Paul say about salvation in Romans ch 4? I suggest you read the entire chapter. Christ brought all together in one body (Gal 3:26-29). What you physically are, where you physically live, etc. no longer matters. What does matter is your faith in Christ. That's all that matters and it makes us all heirs of Abraham.

UncleAbee, shiloh357, is not really into replacement theology

[Botz]

UncleAbee, shiloh357, is not really into replacement theology