Communion - Bread and Wine

[Guest]

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

>>>>>()<<<<<

The Holy Spirit told me the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus.

If this is so, how does it not violate the command not to drink blood?

Several verses

Many Who Claim To Daily Pull Jesus Bodily Down From Heaven Above With Their Words And Such

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Are Strangely Also Some Of The Same Ones Who Place Their Physical Deeds Above His Holy Word

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

Strange

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Matthew 23:8-11

Ways

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Revelation 2:6

Strange

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:15

[Botz]

For quite a time I have been trying to better understand the practice of Communion as practiced in most congregations.

I do not in any way agree with the doctrine of transubstantiation...I believe it is man-made and built on the traditions of men mis-interpreting the Scriptures and creating something that borders on the ridiculous and often becomes farcical....(dropping pieces of the host, spilling the contents of the chalice etc)

I do not really believe in Communion per-se, and also see this as a man-made ceremony that has a Protestant slant rather than a Catholic one, but none-the-less should have a biblical one...I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, but I acknowledge that it is rather removed from the original memorial that was instituted by the L-rd, to be included in the 'yearly' Jewish, biblical, eternal celebration of Passover to which we as born-again Gentiles can now partake of.

As far as I can see from what I understand at the moment (and I am open to any input that will give clarification), the bread used should be unleavened...perhaps for two reasons.

1. To re-inact the haste in which the meal was prepared

2. Because leaven/yeast is symbolic of sin

On the second basis, the wine in this instance would also have to be of the unfermented grape.

What I believe has happened is that the Gentile body of Believers have moved away from the natural olive, and in doing so have distanced themselves from the Jewish traditions that they can now participate in, and have made their own that perpetuate the separateness and continually emphasize differences that do nothing to re-connect to where we have come from.

Anyway that should be enough to go on with, I don't like posting long posts.

In Messiah. Botz

[mizzdy]

For quite a time I have been trying to better understand the practice of Communion as practiced in most congregations.

I do not in any way agree with the doctrine of transubstantiation...I believe it is man-made and built on the traditions of men mis-interpreting the Scriptures and creating something that borders on the ridiculous and often becomes farcical....(dropping pieces of the host, spilling the contents of the chalice etc)

I do not really believe in Communion per-se, and also see this as a man-made ceremony that has a Protestant slant rather than a Catholic one, but none-the-less should have a biblical one...I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, but I acknowledge that it is rather removed from the original memorial that was instituted by the L-rd, to be included in the 'yearly' Jewish, biblical, eternal celebration of Passover to which we as born-again Gentiles can now partake of.

As far as I can see from what I understand at the moment (and I am open to any input that will give clarification), the bread used should be unleavened...perhaps for two reasons.

1. To re-inact the haste in which the meal was prepared

2. Because leaven/yeast is symbolic of sin

On the second basis, the wine in this instance would also have to be of the unfermented grape.

What I believe has happened is that the Gentile body of Believers have moved away from the natural olive, and in doing so have distanced themselves from the Jewish traditions that they can now participate in, and have made their own that perpetuate the separateness and continually emphasize differences that do nothing to re-connect to where we have come from.

Anyway that should be enough to go on with, I don't like posting long posts.

In Messiah. Botz

I agree with you on this, Yeshua wasn't beginning a new tradition. I would say though it is biblical tradition that we should take from and not rabbinical traditions, but yes I do believe that we have separated ourselves from G-d's days. It is His desire to see His children all of them reunited and in the end that is exactly what He will do bring back His flock and all will observe His days once again.

[OneLight]

We are to do so in remembrance of Him and His sacrifice. There is not timetable to follow.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (New King James Version)

Institution of the Lord

[Fez]

We are to do so in remembrance of Him and His sacrifice. There is not timetable to follow.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (New King James Version)

Institution of the Lord

[Botz]

We are to do so in remembrance of Him and His sacrifice. There is not timetable to follow.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (New King James Version)

Institution of the Lords Supper

For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me. In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.

For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death till He comes.

Amen!

Henry says....

"His blood is the seal and sanction of all the privileges of the new covenant; and worthy receivers take it as such, at this holy ordinance. They have the New Testament, and their own title to all the blessings of the new covenant, confirmed to them by his blood".

He goes on to say, why wine? The drink was probably wine, but wine mixed with water. Many churches use grape juice because some people should not be using alcohol, no matter how small an amount. It is the symbolism here that matters, the heart of the partaker that matters, not doctrine.

I would challenge a number of things here, and put them up for consideration...because what I am constantly re-discovering is that we as Gentile Believers in the Jewish Messiah, (through no fault of our own in this present day) continue to cling to the things we are familiar with within our own communities, and are extremely reluctant to re-consider precisely what we do, and why we do it...it is so much easier to stay with the present program.

However, in these days, in this specific time in history, one of the things that has become evident is the re-emergence of Israel as a nation, the focus of attention on that snippet of real estate, and the desire for the Gentile Body of Believers to stand with Israel, especially Jewish Believers, and re-discover our roots.

I believe this is a work of the Holy Ghost....and if we are serious in affirming our commitment to what the Spirit is saying to the Church in these times, perhaps we need to re-evaluate and re-access some of the things we have taken for granted.

Regarding what has been termed 'Communion' just three things I contend with here at the moment, not to be argumentative or contentious, or even over-emphasizing peripherals...but because I have a passionate desire to see strong-holds broken and Jewish roots honestly re-connected and not just given lip-service to.

1. It is not just the symbolism that matters..... for it to have significant meaning it is contained within a specific context where we can celebrate with the Jewish people, G-ds deliverance through Moses, and celebrate even more, the blood of the Lamb of G-d that saved us and is effectively at work on our behalf for all time. To divorce it from this setting, and make of it a purely Gentile tradition, means it is very nearly unrecognizable.

2. Some have mentioned that when the elements of Communion come around, if they think of any sins they quickly ask forgiveness so that they can partake with a clear conscience...whereas if it was done on a yearly basis and knowing that Passover was drawing near, each person truly examined themselves and got before G-d and allowed Him to cleanse and purify them, it would be far more significant, and probably a much deeper work of repentance would take place.

3. It is called 'The L-rds Supper'...how a thimble of juice and a fragment of bread can constitute this supper...just makes me smile. ...but seriously, everything the Jewish people celebrate, whether Succot, Pesach, Purim etc etc has a strong biblical/historical basis and is done as a memorial and in some cases as a specific command of G-d.

I also don't think that the Scriptural support for taking Communion 'often', or as 'often as you choose' is as solid as some people try to make out, and rather I see the Scriptures implying....'as often as you partake of Passover supper....take this cup and this bread, and remember Me'. So I would say that 'yes', there is a specific time-table to follow.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with taking Communion the way we have been taught and been accustomed to doing, but I do think it is time to think again. (and please don't anyone think I am advocating that we try and be/act Jewish...because I ain't saying this at all.)

[JCISGD]

Botz, if Jesus meant as often as you come to passover there is no reason He would not just say so. "As often as you come together" can only mean what it says or else we need doubt all simple instruction.

After Christ it was soon no longer possible that christians would come together once a year as the Israelites were commanded. Gentile christians were given only two requirements 1. avoid idols 2. avoid sexual immorality.

The clear rules over the unclear.

I know of no christain men filled with the Holy Spirit and used powerfully in seeing millions come to saving faith in Christ, that advocated Judaism for their hearers.

[Fez]

We are to do so in remembrance of Him and His sacrifice. There is not timetable to follow.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (New King James Version)

Institution of the Lord

[anitarose]

I will share my beliefs on this subject, then I will bow respectfully out to more learned people:

1) The majority of the Renewed (read: NEW) covenant was written by Hebrew fishermen, tax collectors, and a Pharisee. Only the Pharisee might know Greek, so that leaves it written originally in Hebrew.

2)The act of "communion" as you so term it, was smack in the middle of a Passover celebration, specifically the presentation of the afikomen and the 3rd cup, commonly known in Jewish custom as "the cup of suffering", or the "cup of redemption". Jewish custom is fond of memorials; that is why they celebrate so many feasts, when you stop and think about it. All the feasts are centered around agriculture. Y'shua himself said that "if a seed falls into the ground and dies, it yields much fruit". He addressed and couched a lot of things in simile and metaphors that they all could understand, being an agricultural society. This is just one more memorial in the middle of another memorial. Not to say that it isn't important.

3) the idea of "transsubstantiation" is a pagan idea; it comes from turning one thing into supposedly literal items. It comes from Constantine and his introduction of pagan ways into the Christian belief system; the worship of the Queen of Heaven (read: MARY). Research it and see, please, before dismissing me as practicing "false doctrine".

It is a memorial, but it is supposed to be done in the middle of another memorial of freedom; the freedom of the Hebrews from the tyrant of Egypt. It ultimately took bloodshed before they were freed; the slaying of the firstborn. Why the firstborn? HaShem said it himself; the firstborn are His....so He had every right to take them.

So I leave this all to you. Have I just thrown a wrench into the works, or have you become Bereans and researched what I've said?

******bowing respectfully out so more learned persons can continue the debate*********

a.

[Botz]

Botz, if Jesus meant as often as you come to passover there is no reason He would not just say so. "As often as you come together" can only mean what it says or else we need doubt all simple instruction.

After Christ it was soon no longer possible that christians would come together once a year as the Israelites were commanded. Gentile christians were given only two requirements 1. avoid idols 2. avoid sexual immorality.

The clear rules over the unclear.

I know of no christain men filled with the Holy Spirit and used powerfully in seeing millions come to saving faith in Christ, that advocated Judaism for their hearers.

I don't think you were listening bro...I thought I explained clearly that I was not advocating Judaism.

If you would like to show me the verse where Jesus gives instruction that He has set a precedent for the Communion by saying,"As often as you come together" I will have a look at it in context.....I think we sometimes get a bit muddled up with two events....one is Passover, a yearly event over several days, and the other is the 'breaking of bread' which denotes general fellowship over a meal as often as you like....even daily.

Just because there are great men of G-d whose ministry is a powerful testimony to the work of the Holy Ghost and they celebrate Communion and teach Communion the traditional way, does not infer they are right, or that it is unimportant.

It is not doubting simple instructions that we need to worry about, but to re-think some of the things we accomodate without even thinking about is not 'doubt'...it comes from a desire to be biblical and derive greater benefits....take this verse as a demonstration of what I mean:

Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26 and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Now I know what we are discussing 'kicks against the pricks' as it were, and can elicit knee jerk reactions...but it is up for consideration and discussion, and as AnitaRose commentated...surely we can generate a degree of Berean interest, even though this is not on a par with salvation or ressurection.

Thoughtfully. Botz