The End of America

[Fez]

How else is the world truly going to know? How else are we really going to be a witness?

Bottom line is simply this - are we loving God with all our hearts? Are we seeking first His kingdom and righteousness? Are we purifying our souls by obeying the truth through His spirit?? unto unpolluted and selfless love of others? Do we tremble when we utter His word to others? Do we love our neighbors?

Are we truly hearing what His Spirit is saying to each of us?

I pray so . . . .

Amen to that. When He comes it is not going to be pretty.....

But my two cents about running anywhere? Where?

Anywhere will be everywhere

And so placing any one place or country at the centre is fruitless.

Also...

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

Establish from the Greek is "set in a certain direction" στηρίζω

stērizō

stay-rid'-zo

From a presumed derivative of G2476 (like G4731); to set fast, that is, (literally) to turn resolutely in a certain direction, or (figuratively) to confirm: - fix, (e-) stablish, stedfastly set, strengthen.

I am confident that wherever I am, God has established me there. And I don't move without a lot of prayer and searching first.

To classify obedience to God's word to "Come out of her MY people" as "running" misrepresents both the meaning of the the word and the motive of those obeying it.

Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Yes I agree, but almost the entire thread has been alluding to running away...

With quotes like this...

Most people think this is just a bunch of fed up American Christians wanting to leave, but I have heard from others outside America who feel they need to make ready for their American sisters and brothers who will be coming out.

I am quite aware what the scripture you posted means

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Isa 52:8 The voice of thy watchmen! they lift up the voice, together do they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when Jehovah returneth to Zion.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:10 Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; cleanse yourselves, ye that bear the vessels of Jehovah.

Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out in haste, neither shall ye go by flight: for Jehovah will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rearward.

[other one]

Keep in mind that the great Babylon that we are to come out of is not a nation, but a single city. If the USA is tied up with Mystery Babylon, it's one city here that is being spoken of. From my viewpoint could only be Nwe York City..... We do occasionally catch a boat on the other side of the Hudson River, but I'm not planning to be there to have to come out of her.

[OneLight]

As I have been reading this with interest, it brings back a memory of something God showed me years ago. When it all hits the fan, I will still be here preaching Christ and helping those who did not make it out. So, I accept that we all have our own path to follow in Him. Just as we are all different parts of His body, we are all called to do certain things for Him. When I first was shown this, I thought that I would be missing the rapture, but now I am not pre-trib, it all fits together very nicely and I am confident that He will protect me as I do His will.

I too for have always felt that I would stay . . . but that I must make sure my family and others are safely elsewhere. But that my labor here would be till the end. However, we all need to careful about what we "feel" and make sure whatever we do it is by faith, conviction, full persuasion that we are in God's will when, where, and doing what He has for us . . . otherwise how can we have confidence?

When praying the other night for what the Lord would have me share at a coffee house I host, He impressed upon the conclusion to each of the seven churches of Revelation 2 & 3 -

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Re 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Re 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Re 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Re 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Each of us are unique members of the Body of Christ having received grace according to the gifts disperse amongst us by the Holy Spirit. Each of us will have a need to hear what "the Spirit saith unto" us, as well as to those we are laboring with.

However, that doesn't mean we will be hearing the same thing anymore than the seven churches were told the same things, the encouragements, exhortation and admonitions were all according to each churches condition and requirements. We too must purpose to "have an ear to hear."

God is speaking, but are we listening? The time is coming when it will not matter how well you know your theology, what will mater is whether or not you have oil in your lamps and are found watching and praying that you may be found worthy to escape the wrath that is about to come.

What has always impressed me about the verses pertaining to "the beast" is the following -

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and

they

that dwell on the earth

shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life

from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

That isn't saying that perhaps we should have some kind of an inkling as to what/who the beast might be . . . it is saying clearly to me that we should know . . . . because we were warned by scriptures and have therefore we prayerfully sought understanding from our Father. I'm no longer concerned who laughs, mock, ridicules me because I am persuaded America is headed into destruction, because it is something I have questioned and challenged over and over in my own heart. Nevertheless, the Lord has continually turn me here and there and shown me things in my heart, giving to me repeated confirmation from history and prophecy. With some things I been shown and taught from scriptures for nearly 25 years that have come to pass . . . right up to our present position of turning from Israel and befriending her enemies.

What other nation out there has mapped a "road map to peace" which requires the taking of God's covenanted land to Israel? What other Nation is leading the quest for a New World Order?

Yes, America is like a leper in whom the plague of her sin is, and the past glory of her clothes are rent with the head bare and should be crying out "Unclean, unclean." Therefore God is going cause her to dwell alone in darkness by taking her outside the camp of world nations by her destruction.

Re 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Yes, I am grieved and wearied by people telling me what kind of poor Christian and lousy American I am because I am thus persuaded . . . all I know is my heart breaks everyday . . . and therefore I pray for Obama, all those in our government, the judges and the criminals, the believer and the unbeliever, my family . . . that all God's longsuffering will not be in vain. I pray for God's people that they would grow up and in spirit and truth endeavor to be ONE as Jesus prayed we would be, and that we would quit all the carnal bickering and debate of the flesh by trying to prove ourselves right instead of humbly seeking truth by, first and foremost, challenging our own selves.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest Me I have given them;

that they may be one, even as We are one

:

23

I in them, and Thou in Me, That they may be made perfect in one; and

that the world may know

that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.

How else is the world truly going to know? How else are we really going to be a witness?

Bottom line is simply this - are we loving God with all our hearts? Are we seeking first His kingdom and righteousness? Are we purifying our souls by obeying the truth through His spirit?? unto unpolluted and selfless love of others? Do we tremble when we utter His word to others? Do we love our neighbors?

Are we truly hearing what His Spirit is saying to each of us?

I pray so . . . .

Have we met before? We must have because we walked the same road.

When I was shown that I would be here to help, I was alone. My family was not with me. I thought this as strange, wondering if I stand alone in my family for Him. Only He knows for sure the hearts of those I love dearly. I do know this, He has confirmed this to me many times. I can't describe it in detail, but I know it will happen.

I also have seen the US as turning from God and gathering with the world against Israel. Being a super power, I am led to believe that we may very well lead the way to a false peace. Exactly how the US will play out is not part of what I have seen, but that this country will not remain in His favor.

To me, coming out of her speaks to me spiritually. It is telling me not to stand behind her, but to distance myself as God allows the US to fall. I too will pray for the people who are entangled in this web, reaching out to them in truth. It is a separation from what was, what is and what will come. The US has been a great place to live, is one of the best in the world to still live, and will continue to have wealth until He removes His hand from upon us.

If we stop and consider what we have been taught about the US, holding it in great honor, we will see that we have made an idol. We have to ask if it is the US we should hold up to God or if it is the people who live here? Freedom does not come from a country, but from God. Having plenty does not come from a country, but from God. Being safe does not come from a country, but from God. Whatever we have is because He gave it to us. God is to be worshiped and obeyed. When the US falls, God remains.

Time will tell as His day draws nearer.

God Bless ...

[Joshua-777]

Keep in mind that the great Babylon that we are to come out of is not a nation, but a single city. If the USA is tied up with Mystery Babylon, it's one city here that is being spoken of. From my viewpoint could only be Nwe York City..... We do occasionally catch a boat on the other side of the Hudson River, but I'm not planning to be there to have to come out of her.

Just wondering, what scriptures prove that the Harlot Babylon can't be a Nation but a single city?

One thing I found interesting, in Isaiah 1, The Lord refers to Israel as Sodom. In this Passage. Which shows that the Lord does use a city from the past to describe a country.

Isaiah 1:9

9 Unless the LORD of hosts

Had left to us a very small remnant,

We would have become like Sodom,

We would have been made like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the LORD,

You rulers of Sodom;

Give ear to the law of our God,

You people of Gomorrah:

11 “ To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”

Says the LORD.

[other one]

Rev 17:15-18

15 Then he said to me,"The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

NKJV

Rev 18:4-10

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying,"Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.' 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day

[other one]

Keep in mind that the great Babylon that we are to come out of is not a nation, but a single city. If the USA is tied up with Mystery Babylon, it's one city here that is being spoken of. From my viewpoint could only be Nwe York City..... We do occasionally catch a boat on the other side of the Hudson River, but I'm not planning to be there to have to come out of her.

Just wondering, what scriptures prove that the Harlot Babylon can't be a Nation but a single city?

One thing I found interesting, in Isaiah 1, The Lord refers to Israel as Sodom. In this Passage. Which shows that the Lord does use a city from the past to describe a country.

Isaiah 1:9

9 Unless the LORD of hosts

Had left to us a very small remnant,

We would have become like Sodom,

We would have been made like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the LORD,

You rulers of Sodom;

Give ear to the law of our God,

You people of Gomorrah:

11

[BlindSeeker]

. . .To classify obedience to God's word to "Come out of her MY people" as "running" misrepresents both the meaning of the the word and the motive of those obeying it.

Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Yes I agree, but almost the entire thread has been alluding to running away...

With quotes like this...

Most people think this is just a bunch of fed up American Christians wanting to leave, but I have heard from others outside America who feel they need to make ready for their American sisters and brothers who will be coming out.

Can you please explain the above quote regarding the opinion of of people judging the motives of other Christians in anyway alludes and supports the "running away" concept? Again . . . it seems some are implying cowardice and weakness on others (though some have blatantly charge it to be so).

I am quite aware what the scripture you posted means

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Isa 52:8 The voice of thy watchmen! they lift up the voice, together do they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when Jehovah returneth to Zion.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:10 Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; cleanse yourselves, ye that bear the vessels of Jehovah.

Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out in haste, neither shall ye go by flight: for Jehovah will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rearward.

I am pleased then that you are "quite aware what the scripture . . . posted means."

You will then realize that it is very likely that Jeremiah was comforted by this verse as he again was told by the Spirit to encourage those coming out of the Babylonian that God would protect them in their obedience to him as they fled Babylon, Being as "he goats" meant to go forth as leaders of the herd, not cowardly -

Jer 50:8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.

Jer 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

Especially because Isaiah also told the people to flee the Chaldeans and Babylon -

Isa 48:20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

Certainly the weren't fleeing out of fear of the Chaldeans, nor fleeing in a state of cowardice . . . . not they are told to flee with singing, because God has redeemed them and they were to take this message "even to the end of the earth" and tell the whole world how God had redeemed them.

It is simply a New Testament teaching -

Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am also quite persuaded within myself that the Apostles also view Isaiah's text as powerful scriptural confirmation to Jesus own words to flee Jerusalem after "The LORD hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations" as Jesus hung naked upon Calvary's tree and prior to God's wrath being poured out on Israel and Jerusalem they fled to "all the ends of the earth" preaching the gospel of judgment and mercy with the good news of the Gospel so all could "see the salvation of our God."

I posted the verses simply because I believe Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. If He promised to "go before" the Jews fleeing Babylon and would also be their "rereward," and like the Christians who fled the wrath to be poured out upon Jerusalem also knew God would be so faithful to them in their obedience . . . then I too also believe God will go with His people.

Me, I don't want to be faithless as limit God from being all He has said he would be in my life.

Ps 78:40 How oft did they provoke Him in the wilderness, and grieve Him in the desert!

41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

42 They remembered not His hand, nor the day when He delivered them from the enemy.

I am simply looking back at what God has done . . . and if His word is true then I too must remember the power of His hand and His desire to deliver believers today.

Please tell me Brother Fez, how do you understand the passage in Isaiah?

.

[BlindSeeker]

Have we met before? We must have because we walked the same road.

Perhaps we share a kindred Spirit . . .

To me, coming out of her speaks to me spiritually. It is telling me not to stand behind her, but to distance myself as God allows the US to fall. I too will pray for the people who are entangled in this web, reaching out to them in truth. It is a separation from what was, what is and what will come.

All those can be found in he exhortations throughout scriptures to be holy and exasperated unto the Lord. But this here "coming out of her" I believe is as literal as were the exhortations of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Time will tell as His day draws nearer.

Certain proved things with the 10 virgins . . . .

[RebekahDavid]

Blessings,

just some points to ponder flee where? at least two of the countries mentioned as okay because of their stance on abortion really stand out for other things that the Lord calls sin. El Salvador do you think the Lord has forgotten the bloodshed there of men woman and children? Venezula is a communist country that is helping Russia arm Syria and Iran and has backed a terrorist group that has cause death and destruction in its neighbor Columbia. do you think the Lord will overlook that because of their stance on abortion?

In order to come out of a country that is evil and flee to one that is not evil you will need to find the country that is perfectly obedient to the Lord or you are just trading one country's sin for another country's sin. If you find one that is please let me know and i will join you there but i honestly do not believe that will happen brother until the Lord returns.

tiptoes out of the thread.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[Guest shiloh357]

Hmmm . . . America isn't an empire . . . .

empire -n.

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) an aggregate of peoples and territories, often of great extent, under the rule of a single person, oligarchy, or sovereign state

2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any monarchy that for reasons of history, prestige, etc., has an emperor rather than a king as head of state

3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the period during which a particular empire exists

4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) supreme power; sovereignty Related adj imperial

None of that proves America is an empire. We are not ruled by a single person. The strongest branch of government is the legislature. The weakest branch of government is the executive branch (the president's branch). The founders purposely made the President the weakest part of government so as to avoid dictitorialism and imperial agendas.

Empires gain territory by taking over other countries. Britain was an empire. Rome was an empire. Persia was once an empire, as was Babylonia. The United States does not bear any similarity with any historical empires.

Quote

We call that "Eisogesis" . . .

I guess if you (whoever all you "we" are . . . Baptist?) . . . can give it a classification or title and a definition what you think it is, that means all those who don't think like the "We" are taught must be wrong . . . because you can say they're just eisogesising . . .

It not something Baptists made up. It simply rule of literary analysis. You are beginning with the assumption that America is mentioned in Bible prophecy and you are further assuming that you can identify America. From there you interpret Scripture to fit what you have already decided is there. That amounts to reading into the text and it is a subjective and unreliable way of handling the text. Anyone can make the Bible say whateve they want it to say when they work from your approach. You have exactly NO hermeneutic grounds for trying to pin something from the book of Revelation on to the United States.

You still haven'y left the realm of personal opinion . . . as evident by all your personal comments about me . . . more than about the subject of the OP.

shiloh357, on 28 November 2010 - 07:11 AM, said:

To grab something that God said in the past and make it apply to our situation and time period is a fallacious handling of the text.

You are trying to pin it on America, but you have no solid hermeneutic footing. The mistake you are making is that you are reading the United States into the text. You begin with the misgiven assumption that the US is what is being referenced and then you set about the task of forcing the Bible to mold around your assumption. You are interpreting the evidence to fit what you want the evidence to prove. We call that "Eisogesis" and it is a very subjectie and unreliable method of study. It makes the Bible a servant to the reader.

. . . Like I said, all you have done is provide historical accounts where God has called other people to flee from certain countries. You have not provided one shred of evidence that God is calling any of us to flee the United States.

Every bit as carnal as this notion that we are supposed to flee the United States.

What is clear is that running and hiding your light has never done anything to help others find Christ.

That is not a personal opinion of you. It is an honest assessment of your handling of the text. You are bent on trying to fit America into prophecy and so far your attempts to draw comparisons between the US and what you see in Revelation simply don't hold water when they are examined closlely. It is a case of fitting square pegs in round holes.

You have done zero convincing on your position and a whole lot of belittling of mine. What is the word for that method of teaching?

I don't pretend to be able to convince you. You get insulted and angered if I simply ask you to clarify something you said in a post. I certainly don't think you have the patience to deal with the hermeneutic/exegitical issues that seem to be prevalent in trying to make America fit into the book of Revelation.