Can Omniscience and free will coexist?

[johndavid316]

I don't have a motivation.

You're explaining this wrong to your self, you must remember that in my example, Joey's god did not specify whether or not Joey had free will.

Then if Joey does not have free will, this makes absolutely no sense at all discussing free will. You are creating a circle game which I don't have time for. Off to work ...

What circle game? I simply posed the question, created a logical argument for the two words not being able coexist in that universe and you disagreed with my logic. I fully explained my logic, and when I did, you questioned my motivation. There is no circle here. I was wondering if anyone could come up with a logical counter argument, which, so far, no one has. If you agree with the logical argument, can't you at least say that you agree with it, even if you don't want to accept the potential meaning that it could have in a non-hypothetical universe? I am NOT trying to say that it does, and have gone over that already, but so far no one has come up with any logical counter argument to mine, but no one has agreed with me either. You can't just disagree with something because you don't like it. I didn't like it when my dog died, but that doesn't mean that I walk around saying that it didn't happen.

[enoob57]

Laying all this aside.... let me speak of logical conclusions

If god knows Joey will pick B and cannot be wrong, then joey must pick B.

This is true.

in you pursuit to equalize your mind with God you have decidedly chosen a position of non submission to the Word of God... In the beginning

Gen 2:9

9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

NKJV

Gen 3:1-6

3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

NKJV

clearly choice was here...

1 Tim 2:14-15

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

NKJV

It seems you are opposed to the freewill of man as to choice yet God has said it was so. Worse from the position you are speaking of- you examine God as blame for .... Our Father here at Worthy is The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and when He speaks of choice, it is choice, and His qualities are in unity with what He speaks...

Once again we see Choice in the garden

Luke 22:41-44

41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

NKJV

Hear the Son begins His payment for the price of our sin. The deciding factor of the choice that you do not see is the lack of choice now given to the Son of God, for we could not cease from our choice of sin from the beginning so now He must go to the Cross of our sin, our rightfu place, and at the cross returned choice to the loved of God! Here is where your contention lies- here with the Son begging for another way but any other way would have left us without choice and eternal damnation. Love Steven

[nebula]

I don't have a motivation.

That's what they all say. . . .

[OneLight]

I don't have a motivation.

You're explaining this wrong to your self, you must remember that in my example, Joey's god did not specify whether or not Joey had free will.

Then if Joey does not have free will, this makes absolutely no sense at all discussing free will. You are creating a circle game which I don't have time for. Off to work ...

What circle game? I simply posed the question, created a logical argument for the two words not being able coexist in that universe and you disagreed with my logic. I fully explained my logic, and when I did, you questioned my motivation. There is no circle here. I was wondering if anyone could come up with a logical counter argument, which, so far, no one has. If you agree with the logical argument, can't you at least say that you agree with it, even if you don't want to accept the potential meaning that it could have in a non-hypothetical universe? I am NOT trying to say that it does, and have gone over that already, but so far no one has come up with any logical counter argument to mine, but no one has agreed with me either. You can't just disagree with something because you don't like it. I didn't like it when my dog died, but that doesn't mean that I walk around saying that it didn't happen.

OK I don't agree with your logic. Free will and an Omniscience God can exist.

[other one]

Anyone have any thoughts?

Here is what I read somewhere and I agree with it.

"For example, if I predicted that a coin would land on heads, and it does, that doesnt mean that I am omniscient or that i effected the outcome of the coin toss. However if i am omniscient, and i know the coin will land on heads, then no matter what, the coin will land on heads. There is no other option, and this is why free will cannot exist with omniscience. If i claim to be omniscient and i say that it will land on heads, and it lands on tails, i was wrong and i am not omniscient."

God (The Father) is not bound by space and time. When you say that he knows what you will decide next week, doesn't really mean that he knows you well ehough to know what you will or might do, it means he saw what you did next week; it's totally your/our decision, he can simply see the future as he gave John the privilage to do when he was being shown Revelation.

Some people say that all that is happening is Gods plan for he told us about it 2,000 years ago...... but I say he simply looked into the future and saw what we (or Satan) did and told us about it so we won't loose heart and kill our faith.

.

Chew on that thought for a while.

[Guest]

.... Free will and an Omniscience God can exist.....

Amen!

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Romans 11:33-36

The All Knowing God

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Psalms 139:1-4

And Whosoever Will

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

The Two Choices Of Mankind

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

[Jorge S]

..., Joey's god cannot be wrong, therefore, regardless of whether or not Joey is being forced to choose something, Joey can only choose the choice that his god knows he will choose. Therefore he does not have free will.

Dear John,

Joey's free will is guaranteed by the various options he is presented with.

Also it said in my proof that if he DID choose the an option that his god didn't know he would choose, then his god is not omniscient, and Joey does have free will.

That is a self-refuting argument because it is an impossible scenario. You have already said that Joey's god cannot be wrong, therefore, he necessarily knows all options. His omniscience grants him the foreknowledge of Joey's choice even before Joey makes it.

Hence, omniscience and free will do co-exist. The latter is contained within the first: whatever choices we make, we can never surprise God.

[Rick-Parker]

Something else that I found was this

"I have option A and option B.God knows what i am going to choose. He knows that i am going to choose A.Can i choose B?If the answer is no, then i have no free will. I am given the Illusion of a choice. If the answer is yes, then god was wrong and he is not omniscient."

Before anyone goes off on me about what the Bible says let me say this. I know what the Bible says, and I am a Christian. This is just a logical contradiction that interests me and I want to talk about it.

No one is going off on you (as far as I know so far). We have a choice to pick A or B. If we choose A, God already knew it. If we choose B, God already knows it. God is outside of time and sees the beginning to the end of time. That is how He knows which choices we make. We have free will to choose, influenced by either the Holy Spirit or the World (Satan). God just see what we do before we do it.

[Fraught]

Something else that I found was this

"I have option A and option B.God knows what i am going to choose. He knows that i am going to choose A.Can i choose B?If the answer is no, then i have no free will. I am given the Illusion of a choice. If the answer is yes, then god was wrong and he is not omniscient."

Before anyone goes off on me about what the Bible says let me say this. I know what the Bible says, and I am a Christian. This is just a logical contradiction that interests me and I want to talk about it.

It is interesting but maybe not a contradiction. You may choose A or B freely. God knows what you have done before you did it. That makes God omniscient.

[RevelationWriter]

~ There is no such thing as (FREE) will.

We have a Will To Choose.

But, our Will is not (FREE) of any choice. -