Free Grace Theology Vs. Lordship Salvation

[Guest man]

All I am saying is that obedience is not necessary for salvation.

I don't even know how to address this in a way that you would understand or even listen. Whoever is teaching you is a liar.

[Guest shiloh357]

This debate seems to manufacture a problem that does not exist. Salvation is free. 100% full and free. It is not a reward for service. It is not a prize to win. It is a free gift, bought and paid for solely through Christ's finished work on the cross. There is not one thing you can do to earn it or maintain it. Frankly, to assert otherwise is the height of human arrogance. Obedience is the fruit of salvation, not the means of attaining it.

At the same time, we accept Christ as both Lord and Savior. We come to Him on His terms. He offers Himself as both Savior and Lord and we accept Him on that basis or not at all. Lordship pertains to our obedience after having initially been saved. Jesus is our Lord and as saved people, we have regenerated, transformed hearts that want to follow after Him and live for Him.

So I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

[nebula]

How do you handle such verses as:

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Acts 2)

To "repent" means to have a change of mind. We read our own views into the text when we say that to repent means to forsake one's sins. So in the context of the gospel, what does it mean to change one's mind? It means to change your mind about being able to do it on your own, and to realize that you need a Savior who has already paid your debt in full.

And how do I believe that you are not reading your own view into the text when you say that repent means a change of mind rather than a change of action?

By your definition, the rich young ruler would not have needed to be told to sell his possessions, give to the poor, and become one of Jesus' disciples. But if he had "correct thinking," Jesus would have said - what - faith in me is all you need, keep on amassing wealth for yourself and ruling as you please?

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. (Matthew 16:24)

I believe this refers to sanctification, which is necessary if you want a right relationship with God here on Earth, and you want the rewards promised you in Paul's epistles in the Kingdom of Heaven. However, salvation is not a reward (it is a free gift), so salvation is not what is in view here when Jesus says this.

I agree that salvation is not a reward.

However, Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." ("John 14:15)

Can a person be saved if they do not love Jesus? And can they love Him if they are not obeying Him?

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ; (Romans 10:9)

I think this gets to the crux of the issue. Free Grace theology and Lordship Salvation each understand Jesus' role as Lord differently. In Lordship Salvation, Jesus being Lord means that you totally submit your entire life to Jesus Christ. In Free Grace Theology, Jesus is Lord by virtue of who He is, the Son of God. Nothing on our part is required in order for Jesus to be Lord. Its like being a King. If someone breaks a law and disobeys the King in a monarchy, does the King stop being the King? No, the King is still king.

It is because Jesus is Lord that He is able to also be our Savior.

What do you call a subject who does not acknowledge the king as his king? What happens to the subject who does not bow to the king?

If Jesus is not your Lord, than this means you have another lord in your life - which is idolatry. (Unless you want to claim that Jesus being your Lord is not the same as Jesus being your God?)

[Byron A]

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him.

This explains a lot. Byron, define 'placing faith in Christ'? Faith is a trust that bears fruit in our actions. It's not a "think" or "feel" but the basis on which we act.

Faith is trust. Simple as that. Do you trust Christ to have taken care of your eternal salvation for you? I do.

I am not saying that we shouldn't follow Him. I do follow Him. I am a disciple of Christ, obedient to Him. All I am saying is that obedience is not necessary for salvation. It is necessary for sanctification. And sanctification is necessary for the abundant life Christ said He came to give us, as well as necessary for stocking up heavenly treasures (rewards in heaven) as Jesus commanded us to do.

Bryon,

It is the faith that saves, but you can't have the faith without the action. Faith and action are ALWAYS seen together. No action, means no faith, means no salvation.

I disagree. That is works plus faith based salvation, which borderlines works based salvation. Works based salvation is very dangerous to one's spiritual health. Granted, it cannot take away your salvation, but it can still damage your spiritual health.

[nebula]

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point. this man is trying to earn his salvation. He wants to know how to do so. Jesus tells him how to earn his own salvation: Be perfect. As we all know, that is impossible.

Wait - are you saying that Jesus told the man a lie?

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect.

I thought you stated, and I agree, that salvation is not earned? So why are you claiming this now?

That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections.

His perfection cannot cover us if we walk outside of Him, though.

Atonement does not mean to live as you please so long as you have the correct belief.

What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation?

He never used the word "earn." You are inserting this meaning into the conversation to fit your theology.

So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me."

So, let me get this straight -

The man has incorrect thinking. But instead of correcting his thinking, Jesus encourages his incorrect thinking by leading him into discouragement, leaving the man feeling more lost and with no hope of salvation?

That sounds like deception to me.

But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

The problem is in your argument, Jesus never gave the man the way out. Do you truly believe Jesus does this to people?

[mizzdy]

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

He actually did say that.

Matthew 19

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him. The latter is known as sanctification, the former as justification. The result of justification is salvation, which can never be lost due to eternal life being eternal. The result of the sanctification is heavenly rewards, which can be earned and lost by good and evil works.

A good article on rewards which goes into more depth than I have is http://www.faithalon...1b/Rewards.html . I would just like to point out that the New Testament promises us rewards based upon our good works. Salvation, however, is not a reward but a free gift.

If someone comes to me and says come this way and get out of harms way, I have a choice either to put my trust in that person and follow them to safety or distrust them and walk in my own understanding. Faith is strong trust, trust that God will do as He promises and if He is going to do that for me I am going to completely trust Him and follow Him. Following follows trust, they go hand in hand or should. Or trust is incomplete, trust is followed by an action.

No one here is debating salvation is a free gift, it is nothing we can do earns it it is given freely, rewards or blessings come from following His ways, they come from being in convenant with Him. Due. 30:1, 15, tells us that God sets up cursings and blessing for those who obey or disobey, Matt. 6:1 Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. When we believe, confess and return to Him He gives us the ablities to walk in His Torah we should not sound our own horn in what we do, we serve Him and His children and in that we do not boast or our rewards are tarnished and unworthy.

I used to be Messianic, growing up. However, Torah-obedience (which is NOT valid for gentiles, Acts 15) has nothing to do with either justification nor sanctification, so I believe it is outside the scope of this discussion. I will just say that I disagree with "the blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience" idea as being of the old covenant and having no place in the New Covenant.

And no one is saying that we should boast about anything. The rewards that I mentioned are eternal rewards that will will be awarded by God on Judgement Day. No one will be sounding their own alarm nor boasting about it. It will be awarded by God. Not doing good works will not result in the termination of our salvation, but rather result in chastisement in this life and loss of rewards in the World to Come.

Not going to get into yet another debate on Torah, just to be clear I see Torah is all of Gods instructions, from cover to cover if not why do we have all of those books and not just the NT? Where are Gods instructions for us to live a healthy happy life if not in Torah? And what is Gods Spirit writing on your heart if its not His laws? But I digress, sorry its just that you sound just an awful like another Byron i knew, same arguments, same kinda words a bit polished here and there but strangly like a Byron I knew.

There is no old and new anything but a continuation and building upon each covenant God made with men. And I never said there was a division in the OT or the NT I took the Due. passage as showing where God said curses and blessings come from, we could also call them rewards and discipline.

[OneLight]

From what you say, nobody can ever choose to turn from Christ after accepting Him as their Savior. On the other hand, when Christ said "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." is irrelevant. The phrase "does the will" requires someone to do something. Can you see how this goes much deeper then your choices?

The meaning of that passage revolves around the meaning of the phrase "the will of my Father". Lordship Salvation proponents view this to mean all that God has commanded. Free Grace proponents see this as referring to the will of the Father in regards to salvation. In this view, doing the will of the Father is accepting the Gospel on the merit of faith alone.

Salvation IS a free gift from God, as spoken in Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Notice why we are saved? We have been created in Christ for good works, which was prepared beforehand ... seems like works is the result of salvation, and without them, we are disobeying God. Disobeying God is not doing His will.

Those who said "Lord, Lord" are those who "got saved" under a gospel of works and never put their eternal salvation in the hands of Jesus. Most Christians who get saved, get saved knowing that their works cannot get them into heaven, only faith in Jesus Christ can. Even if such people later come around to a view that obedience and good works are necessary for salvation, they still once placed their trust in Christ alone at one point and are thus saved, now and forever.

Works do not save, but are the result of being saved. Those who believe in Christ for salvation, saying "Lord, Lord" can be those who are of the seed that was planted on the wayside or in the thorns. Both received the truth for awhile, then turned away. They still remember scripture, accepted it as truth for a season, though they turned from it. They refused to do the will of the Father.

However, some churches teach works based salvation, such as certain Messianic groups as well as some fundamentalist churches. If someone comes to the Lord with such a belief and never places complete faith in Christ minus their own works, these are the ones who Christ refers to in this passage. Yes, they did great works in Christ's name, but they never had complete faith in the all-efficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I believe that faith and works are hand in hand. Salvation is a gift that is given free to us through the love God has for us and cannot be earned, but to obey His word means that we need to be willing to do what God has for us to do, which are works.

Also notice that in the passage above, these people were not once saved then turned their backs on Christ. Jesus said, "I never knew you!" Taking Jesus at his word, these people were never saved, that is never placed their faith in Christ to begin with.

As with the parable of the Ten Virgins, those whom He said He never knew did not fulfill their commitments. Jesus knows all, so to take it as what you refer to is incorrect. He knew them and called them, having requirements to believe in Him and His will in their life. They disobeyed and were left out.

You see, it is neither one of the other. Scripture is balanced, as our understanding needs to be.

[other one]

Matt 7:20-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

NASB

I find it very difficult to believe that people who call on Him Lord Lord and who prophesied in his name and cast out demons in his name and performed many miracles did/do not believe.

If you do not do his commends and practice lawlessness, you will not enter the kingdom. We can talk about salvation all we want and whether or not it's works or a free gift or what........ but if you don't follow his leading, you will go to hell, simple as that.

While there is nothing you can do to earn salvation for he does give it freely, he does not give it to anyone who is not his own..... and you can't be his own if he is not your Lord and following his teachings

Don't be part of this group of people by thinking all you have to do is believe.

[~candice~]

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him.

This explains a lot. Byron, define 'placing faith in Christ'? Faith is a trust that bears fruit in our actions. It's not a "think" or "feel" but the basis on which we act.

Faith is trust. Simple as that. Do you trust Christ to have taken care of your eternal salvation for you? I do.

I am not saying that we shouldn't follow Him. I do follow Him. I am a disciple of Christ, obedient to Him. All I am saying is that obedience is not necessary for salvation. It is necessary for sanctification. And sanctification is necessary for the abundant life Christ said He came to give us, as well as necessary for stocking up heavenly treasures (rewards in heaven) as Jesus commanded us to do.

Bryon,

It is the faith that saves, but you can't have the faith without the action. Faith and action are ALWAYS seen together. No action, means no faith, means no salvation.

I disagree. That is works plus faith based salvation, which borderlines works based salvation. Works based salvation is very dangerous to one's spiritual health. Granted, it cannot take away your salvation, but it can still damage your spiritual health.

Works do not save, they are just evidence of a saving faith. What you are teaching here is patently false. Faith does not exist in a vacuum apart from works. Don't accuse me of believing in a works based salvation, because I don't, salvation is via faith, but likewise real faith is never seen without ongoing sanctification. You need a new teacher.

[Guest Butero]

John 15:14,15

14 ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I commanded you.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Sounds conditional to me. I vote for Lordship Salvation.