Is Hell Forever?

[Mark2005]

You look at Protestant evangelical churches today. Who do they target? Families, people with money, people in positions of political influence, the rich, beautiful and talented. The more people, the more money, the bigger the buildings, the more influence in the community. No one wants the outcasts, the poor, those who suffer from illness. That's just the way the game is played in the US and Canada (maybe elsewhere, too).

So, like any other group, they want to gain as many desirable followers/converts as possible. Some will claim that is why they "water down" their gospels.

I suppose there is a middle ground here somewhere. If you are all "hell fire and brimstone, damn those sinners" it tends to turn people off and you don't attract as many.

If you are too soft and tolerate everything, and just go for the money and people with money, people think you are nothing but a country club. I understand it is a hard line to walk.

[Floatingaxe]

This bothers me.... a lot!!

Even as a flawed, sometimes angry, individual, I would not throw my dog, my cat or my worst enemy into a lake of fire to cause them to suffer forever and ever. Maybe a little while, if they really do something terrible. But forever and ever? My heart is not so callous as to do that.

So what kind of a God would do something like that to a human being, his highest creation, a being made in his own image? To cast them away into torment without end, forever and ever? I don't even have words for that kind of cruelty.

To me, this is totally incompatible with a God of love. More likely, it is a human concept, developed thousands of years ago, as a way to scare others and keep them in line. "You better do right.... or else." Even the king needs to be afraid of something, if not in this lifetime, than the next.

Thing of the torment Jesus endured while being crucified. Yet even that, as brutal as it was, lasted only for a finite period of time. Can you imagine a person being tormented like that endlessly, forever and ever? Not me.

You aren't God, and that's the simple answer to your question. We cannot apply human standards and sensibilities to the God of the universe. Eternal punishment is not a human concept. It is a divine concept that God teaches us in His Word. He is the only just Judge. He alone has the right to judge sin, and to remove and confine unrighteousness away forever. That isn't cruelty. It is divine justice.

What would you think of a judge who would let a rapist/murderer go free without penalty? God is a much fairer judge than any human judge. God is love. He has other attributes also, among them: majesty, joy, mercy, patience, sorrow, wrath and justice.

The Lake of Fire is created not for humans to go there, but it is a place reserved for Satan and his angels. God's desire is that no human go there, and the Day that He judges men will be a sorrowful one for Him, you can be sure.

Jesus suffered that horrible death on the cross for you so you won't have to suffer torment. He took your punishment. There is only one way a person can avoid hellfire as one's final destination: realize and admit that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour, accept Jesus as Saviour and repent of your sins to receive that forgiveness that is waiting for you. Rejecting Him makes His suffering futile for you.

You are already forgiven---all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ to receive it.

John 3:16

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

[Floatingaxe]

That's stretching it a bit. Are we to think Christians spread the gospel out of genuine concern for the fate of someone else? As opposed to their own agenda?

What kind of agenda do you think believers have except to do the will of God in spreading the Gospel of Truth to the world that is lost and heading for punishment?

Mark 16:15

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 13:10

And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Those who know Jesus Christ have undergone a transformation, and are motivated by love and concern for the world that they have the joy of knowing Jesus and experiencing the freedom that comes from His love and forgiveness as well! That is our agenda.

[OneLight]

You look at Protestant evangelical churches today. Who do they target? Families, people with money, people in positions of political influence, the rich, beautiful and talented. The more people, the more money, the bigger the buildings, the more influence in the community. No one wants the outcasts, the poor, those who suffer from illness. That's just the way the game is played in the US and Canada (maybe elsewhere, too).

So, like any other group, they want to gain as many desirable followers/converts as possible. Some will claim that is why they "water down" their gospels.

I suppose there is a middle ground here somewhere. If you are all "hell fire and brimstone, damn those sinners" it tends to turn people off and you don't attract as many.

If you are too soft and tolerate everything, and just go for the money and people with money, people think you are nothing but a country club. I understand it is a hard line to walk.

Is this the agenda you speak of?

I would consider this a blanket statement, stating for all what may be for a few. The churches in my are do not seek the people with money, people in positions of political influence, the rich, beautiful and talented. We have none! We are just common people trying to make a living.

I do agree that there are newer churches rising with more of an Emergent Church ideal then scriptural truth. Again, we cannot label the whole barrel because of a few bad apples.

How many churches have you been to and what were their denominations?

[Mark2005]

The hatred for Muslims among Christians is almost as great as the hatred for Christians among Muslims. Each should have their own heaven.

[Floatingaxe]

Not YOU personally.

The majority of Christians and leaders seem to delight in "damning those sinners". The hotter the flames, the better. Like it somehow justifies their position.

The majority of Christians seem to have the position "God tells us we have to go out and make disciples of everyone, even the people we don't really like. Besides, the more people we get on our side, the more power and wealth and influence we have." I think most religious people --- Christians as well as other religions --- evangelize for their own benefits, not out of genuine concern for the well-being of someone else.

I honestly cannot recall anyone ever saying "Mark, I love you and I want the best for you. And I believe Jesus will help you."

Mark, I have known you for a couple years now, and had many personal conversations with you, and this is just a very jaded view coming from you! You have not recognized that I have loved you all that time?

This makes me very sad.

One thing you are right about: religious people tend to have carnal reasons for doing things, but people who know Jesus Christ and are not 'religious' spread the Good News of Jesus Christ out of love.

[saved34]

As Abraham once said in pleading for Sodom: "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?"

I fully expect God to be fair. I think his justice demands it. I suspect that God could not live with himself if he punished a person unjustly.

Somehow that justice gets tempered with mercy. The best way my mind can comprehend that is that the wicked are allowed to perish, to cease to exist. There are several places in Proverbs and Psalms that seem to affirm this as well. That would still satisfy the wages of sin as being death.

Mark, do you have any idea what it took for the Son of God to endure what he did, for the very people who spit on him, and brutalized him? We wanna talk fair? Man will go to hell in spite of God, he has done everything he ever needs to do to save a man or woman from hell. Mercy and grace was shown at Calvary, mercy and grace is allowing those who deny him everyday to continue to enjoy his fresh air, his natural resources, and live another day. God is more than just, and he will be right in banishing those who spurn his love. It is a fact, that life and safety is only found in the Lord Jesus Christ. God did not pronounce that to be mean or narrow, it is a fact, just as much as telling someone if they stick their hand in fire they will be burned. There are eternal consequences to rejecting God's ultimate gift of love. He took the horrible weight of our sins upon himself. The agony he experienced for us as he cried to his Father, giving up his own rights to call down legions of angels to destroy those who tormented him, yet it pleased God to do this, for those same people who you say it won't be fair if he punishes them. God have mercy on us as men, we some times do not see the great lengths that God has under gone for us.

Luk 23:34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.

Luk 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One."

Luk 23:36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,

Luk 23:37 and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!"

[Fez]

"Mark, I love you and I want the best for you. And I believe know Jesus will help you."

If you want to talk, lets talk.

From a non denominational Christian serving in a small Jesus loving family church where the children almost outnumber the adults, and whose pastor does not even draw a salary, and the only person paid anything is a part time secretary.

[Floatingaxe]

You look at Protestant evangelical churches today. Who do they target? Families, people with money, people in positions of political influence, the rich, beautiful and talented. The more people, the more money, the bigger the buildings, the more influence in the community. No one wants the outcasts, the poor, those who suffer from illness. That's just the way the game is played in the US and Canada (maybe elsewhere, too).

So, like any other group, they want to gain as many desirable followers/converts as possible. Some will claim that is why they "water down" their gospels.

I suppose there is a middle ground here somewhere. If you are all "hell fire and brimstone, damn those sinners" it tends to turn people off and you don't attract as many.

If you are too soft and tolerate everything, and just go for the money and people with money, people think you are nothing but a country club. I understand it is a hard line to walk.

This point of view is not of God.

What attracts sinners is the work of Holy Spirit to convict men of sin, and to convince men that salvation is only found in a relationship withJesus Christ.

[other one]

The hatred for Muslims among Christians is almost as great as the hatred for Christians among Muslims. Each should have their own heaven.

Mark, I don't know any christian who would not like to see every single muslim in the world come to Jesus.... are you sure it's hate that christians have or a good healthy dose of fear because of thier government.