Islam in America

[Oh Hamburgers!]

...... So then you're not going to bother to look at the verses in context?

I already looked at them, I just didn't see anything that would make me think that this tv interview was somehow a legitimate area for Taqiyya.

Look, I'm not a Muslim, and I don't intend to become one anytime soon. I don't know everything about Islam nor do I feel the need to defend all of their teachings. We are in agreement that they have a lot of things wrong.

However pulling single verses/sets of verses from the Qur'an and making a sweeping claim on them is just as dangerous as pulling single verses from the Bible - especially if you have an preconceived agenda.

What is sad to me is an olive leaf was clearly given during this interview (a coming together of religious moderates to combat extremists) and you are too busy being untrustworthy of all Muslims when it's such a small % of them that actually commit acts of terrorism.

You are right though. There is nothing left to say to someone who refuses to educate themselves. Stay asleep if you desire.

And wrapping the 99% into the same group as the 1% who are violent extremists is your definition of staying awake? If that's the case I'll take some NyQuil!

However I was of course referring to the fact that you won't trust this Muslim on account of his being Muslim.

If you have no trust you provide no opportunity to communicate, since there is nothing they can say that you won't assume is a lie. And frankly if anything is going to lead us to war with the Muslim world it's that mentality.

In the immortal words of Toby Keith, "Red Solo Cup I fill you up, It's time to Party!"

Bottoms up on that Nyquil my dear friend Burgers but remember;

1Pe 4:3

For the time past of our life will suffice us to have done the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in licentiousness, lusts, excess of wine, reveling, carousing, and abominable idolatries:

1Pe 4:4

¶ In which they think it strange that you run not with them to the same excess of dissipation, speaking evil of you:

1Pe 4:5

Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead.

1Pe 4:6

For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1Pe 4:7

¶ But the end of all things is at hand: be therefore sober minded, and watch unto prayer.

Be sober, be vigilant;

1Pe 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Thanks for the passage, I feel pretty good about where my life is and what I've been doing with it, but a good reminder!

[Matthitjah]

...... So then you're not going to bother to look at the verses in context?

I already looked at them, I just didn't see anything that would make me think that this tv interview was somehow a legitimate area for Taqiyya.

Look, I'm not a Muslim, and I don't intend to become one anytime soon. I don't know everything about Islam nor do I feel the need to defend all of their teachings. We are in agreement that they have a lot of things wrong.

However pulling single verses/sets of verses from the Qur'an and making a sweeping claim on them is just as dangerous as pulling single verses from the Bible - especially if you have an preconceived agenda.

What is sad to me is an olive leaf was clearly given during this interview (a coming together of religious moderates to combat extremists) and you are too busy being untrustworthy of all Muslims when it's such a small % of them that actually commit acts of terrorism.

You are right though. There is nothing left to say to someone who refuses to educate themselves. Stay asleep if you desire.

And wrapping the 99% into the same group as the 1% who are violent extremists is your definition of staying awake? If that's the case I'll take some NyQuil!

However I was of course referring to the fact that you won't trust this Muslim on account of his being Muslim.

If you have no trust you provide no opportunity to communicate, since there is nothing they can say that you won't assume is a lie. And frankly if anything is going to lead us to war with the Muslim world it's that mentality.

In the immortal words of Toby Keith, "Red Solo Cup I fill you up, It's time to Party!"

Bottoms up on that Nyquil my dear friend Burgers but remember;

1Pe 4:3

For the time past of our life will suffice us to have done the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in licentiousness, lusts, excess of wine, reveling, carousing, and abominable idolatries:

1Pe 4:4

¶ In which they think it strange that you run not with them to the same excess of dissipation, speaking evil of you:

1Pe 4:5

Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead.

1Pe 4:6

For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1Pe 4:7

¶ But the end of all things is at hand: be therefore sober minded, and watch unto prayer.

Be sober, be vigilant;

1Pe 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Thanks for the passage, I feel pretty good about where my life is and what I've been doing with it, but a good reminder!

Be really careful. Feeling good and emotionality have absolutely nothing to do with Salvation or ones position in Christ. The Truth is the Truth whether one is languishing in a desert for forty years or lounging in the promised land.

[ayin jade]

And frankly if anything is going to lead us to war with the Muslim world it's that mentality.

We are already in a war with the muslim world, a war not of our making. I have seen this firsthand by the moderate muslims who despite their moderateness are still involved in attempting to take over the us. I have seen this firsthand. I have seen their plans. Held them in my hands.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

We are already in a war with the muslim world, a war not of our making. I have seen this firsthand by the moderate muslims who despite their moderateness are still involved in attempting to take over the us. I have seen this firsthand. I have seen their plans. Held them in my hands.

Oh really? Can you share this with us?

If we were really in a literal war with the 7 million moderate Muslims in the US I'm pretty sure something more substantial would have happened already.

Be really careful. Feeling good and emotionality have absolutely nothing to do with Salvation or ones position in Christ. The Truth is the Truth whether one is languishing in a desert for forty years or lounging in the promised land.

I genuinely appreciate the sentiment, however I am very comfortable with who I am and what I believe. I have questions like everyone else but I know where my heart is and have spent a lot of time thinking about fundamental truths.

[Fez]

Any religion that has to discuss lying to such a degree, and even point out when it is Ok, is plain wrong.

"Satan has many tools, and a lie is the handle that fits them all".

[Matthitjah]

We are already in a war with the muslim world, a war not of our making. I have seen this firsthand by the moderate muslims who despite their moderateness are still involved in attempting to take over the us. I have seen this firsthand. I have seen their plans. Held them in my hands.

Oh really? Can you share this with us?

If we were really in a literal war with the 7 million moderate Muslims in the US I'm pretty sure something more substantial would have happened already.

Be really careful. Feeling good and emotionality have absolutely nothing to do with Salvation or ones position in Christ. The Truth is the Truth whether one is languishing in a desert for forty years or lounging in the promised land.

I genuinely appreciate the sentiment, however I am very comfortable with who I am and what I believe. I have questions like everyone else but I know where my heart is and have spent a lot of time thinking about fundamental truths.

Would you be willing to share this testimony?

[Guest]

.... I genuinely appreciate the sentiment, however I am very comfortable with who I am and what I believe. I have questions like everyone else but I know where my heart is and have spent a lot of time thinking about fundamental truths....

Sad

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

Truth

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:9-10

Glad

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Truth

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:18

Jesus Saves

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[ayin jade]

We are already in a war with the muslim world, a war not of our making. I have seen this firsthand by the moderate muslims who despite their moderateness are still involved in attempting to take over the us. I have seen this firsthand. I have seen their plans. Held them in my hands.

Oh really? Can you share this with us?

If we were really in a literal war with the 7 million moderate Muslims in the US I'm pretty sure something more substantial would have happened already.

I have shared it all over the boards over the years. I have watched the plan be enacted during that time. Given your attitude in this post, I do not know if you would even believe what I post though. A muslim's word you would trust but not mine lol. The irony. Im on vacation currently and recovering from a biopsy which praise the Lord came back benign. After Im back together, I will consider pm'ing you with the information.

[OneLight]

When the Imam tell us that their Sharia Law is the same as our Constitution, where we all are concerned for Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, they are purposely excluding the differences.

Sharia is for the protection and furtherance of

1. Life
2. Religion
3. Family
4. Property
5. Intellect
6. Dignity

Yet, they do not explain what this means to them. If one reads and understands what this means to them, they will see a great gulf between how we choose to live and how they choose to live, and this is not cultural, but legal.

[other one]

from the pages of "Reliance of the Traveller": http://www.shafiifiqh.com/maktabah/relianceoftraveller.pdf

(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada

signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is

spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him

peace) said as he was returning from jihad.

``We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad.''

The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus (def: b7) is such Koranic verses as:

(1) ``Fighting is prescribed for you'' (Koran 2:216);

(2) ``Slay them wherever you find them'' (Koran 4:89);

(3) ``Fight the idolators utterly'' (Koran 9:36);

and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give

him peace) said:

``I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have

saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final

reckoning is with Allah'';

and the hadith reported by Muslim,

``To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world

and everything in it.''Details concerning jihad are found in the accounts of the military expeditions of the

Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), including his own martial forays and those on which he

dispatched others. The former consist of the ones he personally attended, some twenty-seven (others say

twenty-nine) of them. He fought in eight of them, and killed only one person with his noble hand, Ubayy

ibn Khalaf, at the battle of Uhud. On the latter expeditions he sent others to fight, himself remaining at

Medina, and these were forty-seven in number.)

THE OBLIGATORY CHARACTER OF JIHAD

o9.1 Jihad is a communal obligation (def: c3.2). When enough people perform it to successfully

accomplish it, it is no longer obligatory upon others (O: the evidence for which is the Prophet's saying

(Allah bless him and give him peace),

"He who provides the equipment for a soldier in jihad has himself performed jihad,"

and Allah Most High having said:

"Those of the believers who are unhurt but sit behind are not equal to those who fight in Allah's path

with their property and lives. Allah has preferred those who fight with their property and lives a whole

degree above those who sit behind. And to each, Allah has promised great good" (Koran 4:95).

If none of those concerned perform jihad, and it does not happen at all, then everyone who is aware

that it is obligatory is guilty of sin, if there was a possibility of having performed it. In the time of the

Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) jihad was a communal obligation after his emigration

(hijra) to Medina. As for subsequent times, there are two possible states in respect to non-Muslims.

The first is when they are in their own countries, in which case jihad (def: o9. is a communal

obligation, and this is what our author is speaking of when he says, "Jihad is a communal obligation,"

meaning upon the Muslims each year. The second state is when non-Muslims invade a Muslim country or

near to one, in which case jihad is personally obligatory (def: c3.2) upon the inhabitants of that country,

who must repel the non-Muslims with whatever they can).

o9.2 Jihad is personally obligatory upon all those present in the battle lines (A: and to flee is an enormity

(dis: p11)) (O: provided one is able to fight. If unable, because of illness or the death of one's mount

when not able to fight on foot, or because one no longer has a weapon, then one may leave. One may

also leave if the opposing non-Muslim army is more than twice the size of the Muslim force).

o9.3 Jihad is also (O: personally) obligatory for everyone (O: able to perform it, male or female, old or

young) when the enemy has surrounded the Muslims (O: on every side, having entered our territory,

even if the land consists of ruins, wilderness, or mountains, for non-Muslim forces entering Muslim lands

is a weighty matter that cannot be ignored, but must be met with effort and struggle to repel them by

every possible means. All of which is if conditions permit gathering (A: the above-mentioned) people,

provisioning them, and readying them for war. If conditions do not permit this, as when the enemy has

overrun the Muslims such that they are unable to provision or prepare themselves for war, then whoever

is found by non-Muslim and knows he will be killed if captured is obliged to defend himself in whatever

way possible. But if not certain that he will be killed, meaning that he might or might not be, as when he

might merely be taken captive, and he knows he will be killed if he does not surrender, then he may

either surrender or fight. A woman too has a choice between fighting or surrendering if she is certain

that she will not be subjected to an indecent act if captured. If uncertain that she will be safe from such

an act, she is obliged to fight, and surrender is not permissible).

WHO IS OBLIGED TO FIGHT IN JIHAD

o9.4 Those called upon (O: to perform jihad when it is a communal obligation are every able bodied man

who has reached puberty and is sane.

o9.5 The following may not fight in jihad:

(1) Someone in debt, unless his creditor gives him leave;

(2) or someone with at least one Muslim parent, until they give their permission;

unless the Muslims are surrounded by the enemy, in which case it is permissible for them to fight

without permission.

o9.6 It is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliph's

permission (A: though if there is no caliph (def: o25), no permission is required).

o9.7 Muslims may not seek help from non-Muslims allies unless the Muslims are considerably

outnumbered and the allies are of goodwill towards the Muslims.

THE OBJECTIVES OF JIHAD

o9.8 The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first

invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social

order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4)-which is the significance of their

paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues)

until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah

Most High,

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His

messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given

the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29),

the time and place for which is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final

coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus'

descent (upon him and our Prophet be peace), which is the divinely revealed law of Muhammad. The

coming of Jesus does not entail a separate divinely revealed law, for he will rule by the law of

Muhammad. As for the Prophet's saying (Allah bless him and give him peace),

"I am the last, there will be no prophet after me,"

this does not contradict the final coming of Jesus (upon whom be peace), since he will not rule

according to the Evangel, but as a follower of our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)).

o9.9 The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim (O: because they are not a people with

a Book, nor honored as such, and are not permitted to settle with paying the poll tax (jizya)) (n: though

according to the Hanafi school, peoples of all other religions, even idol worshippers, are permitted to

live under the protection of the Islamic state if they either become Muslim or agree to pay the poll tax,

the sole exceptions to which are apostates from Islam and idol worshippers who are Arabs, neither of

whom has any choice but becoming Muslim (al-Hidaya sharh Bidaya al-mubtadi' (y21), 6.48-49)).

THE RULES OF WARFARE

o9.10 It is not permissible (A: in jihad) to kill women or children unless they are fighting against the

Muslims. Nor is it permissible to kill animals, unless they are being ridden into battle against the

Muslims, or if killing them will help defeat the enemy. It is permissible to kill old men (O: old man

(shaykh meaning someone more than forty years of age) and monks.

o9.11 It is unlawful to kill a non-Muslim to whom a Muslim has given his guarantee of protection (O:

whether the non-Muslim is one or more than one, provided the number is limited, and the Muslim's

protecting them does not harm the Muslims, as when they are spies) provided the protecting Muslim has

reached puberty, is sane, and does so voluntarily (O: and is not a prisoner of them or a spy).

o9.12 Whoever enters Islam before being captured may not be killed or his property confiscated, or his

young children taken captive.

o9.13 When a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the

woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

o9.14 When an adult male is taken captive, the caliph (def: o25) considers the interests (O: of Islam and

the Muslims) and decides between the prisoner's death, slavery, release without paying anything, or

ransoming himself in exchange for money or for a Muslim captive held by the enemy.

If the prisoner becomes a Muslim (O: before the caliph chooses any of the four alternatives) then he

may not be killed, and one of the other three alternatives is chosen.

o9.15 It is permissible in jihad to cut down the enemy's trees and destroy their dwellings.

TRUCES

o9.16 (O: As for truces, the author does not mention them. In Sacred Law truce means a peace treaty

with those hostile to Islam, involving a cessation of fighting for a specified period, whether for payment

or something else. The scriptural basis for them includes such Koranic verses as:

(1) "An acquittal from Allah and His messenger..." (Koran 9:1);

(2) "If they incline towards peace, then incline towards it also" (Koran 8.61);

as well as the truce which the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) made Quraysh in the year of

Hudaybiya, as related by Bukhari and Muslim.

Truces are permissible, not obligatory. The only one who may effect a truce is the Muslim ruler of a

legion (or his representative) with a segment of the non-Muslims of the region, or the caliph (o25) (or

his representative). When made with other than a portion of the non-Muslims, or when made with all of

them, or with all in a particular region such as India or Asia Minor, then only the caliph (or his

representative) may effect it, for it is a matter of the gravest consequence whether globally or in a given

locality, and our interests must be looked after therein, which is why it is best left to the caliph under any

circumstances, or to someone he delegates to see to the interests of the various regions.

There must be some interest served in making a truce other than mere preservation of the status quo.

Allah Most High says,

"So do not be faint-hearted and call for peace, when it is you who are the uppermost" (Koran 47:35).

Interests that justify making a truce are such things as Muslim weakness because of lack of members

or materiel, or the hope of an enemy becoming Muslim, for the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him

peace) made a truce in the year Mecca was liberated with Safwan ibn Umayya for four months in hope

that he would become Muslim, and he entered Islam before its time was up. If the Muslims are weak, a

truce may be made for ten years if necessary, for the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) made

a truce with Quraysh for that long, as is related by Abu Dawud. It is not permissible to stipulate longer

than that, save by means of new truces, each of which does not exceed ten years.

The rulings of such a truce are inferable from those of the non-Muslim poll tax (def: o11); namely,

that when a valid truce has been effected, no harm may be done to non-Muslims until it expires.)

o10.0 THE SPOILS OF BATTLE

o10.1 A free male Muslim who has reached puberty and is sane is entitled to the spoils of battle when he

has participated in a battle to the end of it.

After personal booty (def: o10.2), the collective spoils of the battle are divided into five parts. The

first fifth is set aside (dis: o10.3), and the remaining four are distributed, one share to each infantryman

and three shares to each cavalryman. From these latter four fifths also, a token payment is given at the

leader's discretion to women, children, and non-Muslim participants on the Muslim side.

A combatant only takes possession of his share of the spoils at the official division. (A: Or he may

choose to waive his right to it.)

o10.2 As for personal booty, anyone who, despite resistance, kills one of the enemy or effectively

incapacitates him, risking his own life thereby, is entitled to whatever he can take from the enemy,

meaning as much as he can take away with him in the battle, such as a mount, clothes, weaponry,

money, or other.

o10.3 As for the first fifth that is taken from the spoils, it is divided in turn into five parts, a share each

going to:

(1) the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), and after his death, to such Islamic interests as

fortifying defenses on the frontiers, salaries for Islamic judges, muezzins, and the like;

(2) relatives of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) of the Bani Hashim and Bani

Muttalib clans, each male receiving the share of two females;

(3) orphans who are poor;

(4) those short of money (def: h8.11);

(5) and travellers needing money (h8.18).

o11.0 NON-MUSLIM SUBJECTS OF THE ISLAMIC STATE (AHL AL-DHIMMA)

011.1 A formal agreement of protection is made with citizens who are:

(1) Jews;

(2) Christians;

(3) Zoroastrians;

(4) Samarians and Sabians, if their religions do not respectively contradict the fundamental bases of

Judaism and Christianity;

(5) and those who adhere to the religion of Abraham or one of the other prophets (upon whom be

blessings and peace).

o11.2 Such an agreement may not be effected with those who are idol worshippers (dis: o9.9 (n:)), or

those who do not have a Sacred Book or something that could have been a Book.

(A: Something that could have been a Book refers to those like the Zoroastrians, who have remnants

resembling an ancient Book. As for the pseudoscriptures of cults that have appeared since Islam (n: such

as the Sikhs, Baha' is, Mormons, Qadianis, etc.), they neither are nor could be a Book, since the Koran

is the final revelation (dis: w4).)

o11.3 Such an agreement is only valid when the subject peoples:

(a) follow the rules of Islam (A: those mentioned below (o11.5) and those involving public behavior

and dress, though in acts of worship and their private lives, the subject communities have their own

laws, judges, and courts, enforcing the rules of their own religion among themselves);

(b) and pay the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya).

THE NON-MUSLIM POLL TAX

o11.4 The minimum non-Muslim poll tax is one dinar (n: 4.235 grams of gold) per person (A: per year).

The maximum is whatever both sides agree upon. It is collected with leniency and politeness, as are all

debts, and is not levied on women, children, or the insane.

o11.5 Such non-Muslim subjects are obliged to comply with Islamic rules that pertain to the safety and

indemnity of life, reputation, and property. In addition, they:

(1) are penalized for committing adultery or theft, thought not for drunkenness;

(2) are distinguished from Muslims in dress, wearing a wide cloth belt (zunnar);

(3) are not greeted with "as-Salamu 'alaykum";

(4) must keep to the side of the street;

(5) may not build higher than or as high as the Muslims' buildings, though if they acquire a tall house,

it is not razed;

(6) are forbidden to openly display wine or pork, (A: to ring church bells or display crosses,) recite

the Torah or Evangel aloud, or make public display of their funerals and feastdays;

(7) and are forbidden to build new churches.

o11.6 They are forbidden to reside in the Hijaz, meaning the area and towns around Mecca, Medina, and

Yamama, for more than three days when the caliph allows them to enter there for something they need).

o11.7 A non-Muslim may not enter the Meccan Sacred Precinct (Haram) under any circumstances, or

enter any other mosque without permission (A: nor may Muslims enter churches without their permission).

o11.8 It is obligatory for the caliph (def: o25) to protect those of them who are in Muslim lands just as

he would Muslims, and to seek the release of those of them who are captured.

o11.9 If non-Muslim subjects of the Islamic state refuse to conform to the rules of Islam, or to pay the

non-Muslim poll tax, then their agreement with the state has been violated (dis: o11.11) (A: though if

only one of them disobeys, it concerns him alone).

o11.10 The agreement is also violated (A: with respect to the offender alone) if the state has stipulated

that any of the following things break it, and one of the subjects does so anyway, though if the state has

not stipulated that these break the agreement, then they do not; namely, if one of the subject people:

(1) commits adultery with a Muslim woman or marries her;

(2) conceals spies of hostile forces;

(3) leads a Muslim away from Islam;

(4) kills a Muslim;

(5) or mentions something impermissible about Allah, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him

peace), or Islam.

o11.11 When a subject's agreement with the state has been violated, the caliph chooses between the four

alternatives mentioned above in connection with prisoners of war (o9.14)