Genesis Flood: Entire earth or local? (Is "godandscience" a cr

[HAZARD]

God did destroy the Earth and flood it as Scripture plainly shows, Twice. Noahs flood was world wide because the only people left were Noah and his family who were on the ark with him. The purpos of Noahs flood was to destroy all mankind including the giants.

There are definate contrasts between the flood of Lucifer Gen. 1:2, and the flood of Noah. The two floods are completly different floods and occured at different times. The first, Lucifers flood is the flood on the earth "That then was." Noah's flood was on the earth "That now is."

Calling Lucifers flood L.F. and calling Noah's flood N.F. we can see scripturally that they are two different floods.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).

N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).

N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).

N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).

N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).

N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).

N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).

N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).

N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).

N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).

N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).

N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No fowles left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).

N.F. Fowles were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).

N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).

N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

[HAZARD]

Selene asked,

"I don't understand what you mean by Lucifer's flood? How can Lucifer's flood be part of the word of God? Could you elaborate more on this?"

.

Sure Selene.

There are two floods recorded in Scripture. The first flood and total destruction of the Earth was the pre-Adamite flood. This flood destroyed the Earth and all that lived in the earth and the society that was ruled by Lucifer before he rebelled and invaded Heaven and tried to dethrone God. What creatures were alive thenis not recorded but bemoths and others are mentioned in Job, I think from memory.

Before iniquity was found in him, Lucifer ruled the Earth long before the re-creation of the Earth and Adam's day. In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

In Col. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?

That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.

Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.

In a nut shell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, don't believe me, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God.

This is not my idea, or pet theory. All we need do is read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

In the time between Gen. 1:1 and Gen 1:2, God did destroy the Earth and flood it as Scripture plainly shows.

There are definate contrasts between the flood of Lucifer Gen. 1:2, and the flood of Noah. The two floods are completly different floods and occured at different times. The first, Lucifers flood is the flood on the earth "That then was." Noah's flood was on the earth "That now is."

There are hundreds of Scriptures throughout the Bible which support the fact that Satan was the original ruler on Earth before Adam. Regarding the first rebellion of Lucifer, and the last war, which will take place in Heaven, Scripture shows this. The heavens are peopled with multitudes of spirit-beings of different orders and kinds. (Rev. 12:12 ;13 15). These beings are of three classes. 1. Gods subjects, (Heb. 1 : 6-14; 2 : 5-9; Rev. 12 : 7-12) 2. Satan's angles who are loose with him Rev. 12 : 7-12). 3. Demons who are loose working with satan. This war in heaven will be the last desperate struggle between spirit beings in the heavenlies for or against the majesty and Kingdom of God. It will be the culmination of the struggle in Heaven between God and Satan.

The first struggle began when lucifer attempted to exalt his kingdom above the angles of God and dethrone God from His universal kingdom over all other kingdoms in the universe. In his rebellion against God and in his ascention into Heaven and above the clouds from the Earth (Isa. 14:12-14) he was cast out of Heaven and backdown to the ground and was dethroned. God destroyed the Earth, turned it upside down, and flooded it. Although deprived of his kingdom and exalted position Satan was not deprived of the power which was his by nature for he still has great power in the heavenlies and over the Earth that was usurped from Adam (Eph.2:2; 6:12; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; Matt. 4:1-11). He still has access to Heaven and accuses the saints before God day and night (Job 1:6; 2:1; Rev. 12:10-12; Zec. 3:6).

Scriptures describe Satan's rebellion fully and in Isa. 14:12-14 we have conclusive proof that Lucifer ruled the earth before the days of Adam. It could not have been since Adam that He ruled and fell from Heaven as in this passage, for he was already a fallen cretaure before Adam was created. After Adam was created, Lucifer regained dominion of the Earth and has been prince of this world ever since. The statements in Isa. 14:12-14 canot possibly be made of an earthly king.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! for thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ascend into heaven, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL be like the most High"

The facts stated in these passages first prove that this refers to Lucifer.

That he was the son of the morning, and therefore no earthly man.

That he fell from Heaven. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

That he was cut to the ground.

That he had weakened the nations on Earth.

That he was exalted in his heart.

That he invaded Heaven, where God rules.

That he was a king, for he had a throne and subjects over whom he ruled.

That he wantedto exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1 Isa. 6:1).

That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven.

Any knigdom located under the clouds and stars has to be on the Earth for one can stand on certain parts of the Earth and still be above clouds, but not stars.

That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on Earth at the time of Adam. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day, so this must refer to a time before Adam.

That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the clouds and the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars and the clouds.

That Gods throne is located somewhere in the northern part of the vast universe, for promotion comes neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: HE PUTTETH DOWN ONE and SETTETH UP ANOTHER (Psalms 75:6-7). God put down Lucifer and set up Adam.

This passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam. In Col. 1:15-17 we read of Christ creating THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES, AND POWERS in Heavens and on the Earth. They are located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by these passaged above. His had subjects which were all destroyed when he rebelled by the flood of Gen 1:2.

Scripture shows that God is eternal, no beginning, no end, and that time is eternal, and also that the Earth had a beginning, that is when God started to creat it, and the Earth will continue on into eternity past. Scripture also shows that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

Who can show which "In the beginning," is a different time factor?

"In the beginning was the Word," (John 1;1) and "In the beginning God created." (Gen. 1:1). Why would one have a beginning and the other not. Which "in the beginning" has a beginning, and which has an endless eternity past?

The Word was with God. And all things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3)?

In the Scriptures it states that the heavens cannot be measured and the host of heaven cannot be counted (Jer. 31:37; 33:22-25). If this is true then the material universe is vast beyond conception, and as God has existed from all eternity, "In the Beginning was the Word etc.," (John 1:1), and "In the beginning God created, etc., (Gen. 1:1), it is hard to concieve that He only decided a few millenniums ago to do something. The first struggle began when lucifer attempted to exalt his kingdom above the angles of God and dethrone God from His universal kingdom over all other kingdoms in the universe. In his rebellion against God and in his ascention into Heaven and above the clouds from the Earth (Isa. 14:12-14) he was cast out of Heaven and backdown to the ground and was dethroned. God destroyed the Earth, turned it upside down, and flooded it. Although deprived of his kingdom and exalted position Satan was not deprived of the power which was his by nature for he still has great power in the heavenlies and over the Earth that was usurped from Adam (Eph.2:2; 6:12; John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; Matt. 4:1-11). He still has access to Heaven and accuses the saints before God day and night (Job 1:6; 2:1; Rev. 12:10-12; Zec. 3:6). Scriptures teach that God created the Heavens and the Earth, in the distant past and God put Lucifer in charge of the earth and eventually "iniquity" was found in Lucifer and he rebelled against God. This must have taken a very long time because Lucifer convinced over one third of God's innumerable angels to rebell with him. Lucifer wanted to knock God off His Throne and take over Gods Kingdom. Naturally he was defeated.

[Steve_S]

That's interesting. This is the first I've heard of two Great Floods. The footnotes and references in my Bible actually speaks of two different sources of the Great Flood, but concluded that there are the same flood despite the differences in details. It is obvious in the Holy Bible that there were two different groups of people writing about the same flood because the details of the flood are not exactly the same. For example, there were actually two different commands that God gave Noah regarding the animals.

Genesis 6:19-20 Of all other living cretures you shall bring two into the ark, one male and one female, that you may keep them alive with you. Of all kinds of birds, of all kinds of beasts, and of all kinds of creeping things, two of each shall come into the ark with you, to stay alive.

Genesis 7:2-3 Of every clean animal, take with you seven pairs, a male and its mate; and of the unclean animals, one pair, a male and its mate; likewise, of every clean bird of the air, seven pairs, a male and a female, and of all the unclean birds, one pair, a male and a female. Thus you will keep their issue alive over all the earth.

Many times, we assume that Noah only brought two pairs of each animals as said in Genesis 6:19-20, but we often overlook God's command in the next chapter, which says a totally different thing. In Chapter 7, God commands Noah to bring seven pairs of clean animals and only one pair of unclean animals. Two different instructions......because they came from two different sources. There were actually more than one person who wrote Genesis. And the texts were put together without bothering to check for consistency. I guess, how many animals Noah brought into the Ark is irrelevant.

I've never really had a problem with the by twos or by sevens. To sum it up completely, for my part, I understand it to mean 2 of everything except fowls and CLEAN beasts, of which you bring 14 of each. This would make reasonable sense as they would likely eventually be consuming the ones they were bringing in 7 pairs.

[Steve_S]

That's interesting. This is the first I've heard of two Great Floods. The footnotes and references in my Bible actually speaks of two different sources of the Great Flood, but concluded that there are the same flood despite the differences in details. It is obvious in the Holy Bible that there were two different groups of people writing about the same flood because the details of the flood are not exactly the same. For example, there were actually two different commands that God gave Noah regarding the animals.

Genesis 6:19-20 Of all other living cretures you shall bring two into the ark, one male and one female, that you may keep them alive with you. Of all kinds of birds, of all kinds of beasts, and of all kinds of creeping things, two of each shall come into the ark with you, to stay alive.

Genesis 7:2-3 Of every clean animal, take with you seven pairs, a male and its mate; and of the unclean animals, one pair, a male and its mate; likewise, of every clean bird of the air, seven pairs, a male and a female, and of all the unclean birds, one pair, a male and a female. Thus you will keep their issue alive over all the earth.

Many times, we assume that Noah only brought two pairs of each animals as said in Genesis 6:19-20, but we often overlook God's command in the next chapter, which says a totally different thing. In Chapter 7, God commands Noah to bring seven pairs of clean animals and only one pair of unclean animals. Two different instructions......because they came from two different sources. There were actually more than one person who wrote Genesis. And the texts were put together without bothering to check for consistency. I guess, how many animals Noah brought into the Ark is irrelevant.

I've never really had a problem with the by twos or by sevens. To sum it up completely, for my part, I understand it to mean 2 of everything except fowls and CLEAN beasts, of which you bring 14 of each. This would make reasonable sense as they would likely eventually be consuming the ones they were bringing in 7 pairs.

The inconsistency in the numbers does not bother me as well. However, I don't think any of these animals are meant to be eaten. According to Chapter 6, after instructing Noah to bring two pairs of every animals, God then instructed Noah to keep these animals alive (See Genesis 6:19-20). Then in Chapter 7, God also told Noah to keep the 7 pairs of unclean animals and 1 pair of unclean animals alive (See Genesis 7:2-3). Nevertheless, I'm sure Noah and his sons were smart enough to go out and get extra animals of their own (and even food for the animals brought into the ark) otherwise it's going to be fruits and vegetables for the entire 40 days and 40 nights.

I'm not talking about for food while ON the ark, but after the flood. In other words, after the flood was over it's quite logical that noah and his family would set up farms, etc., that would require clean animals to run properly.

[Littlelambseativy]

I long ago watched a documentary which showed in Australia where "the" flood covered the whole land of down under. So if the land of Australia was covered by the Noah flood and it is indicated in the rock formations I would say that the "whole earth was covered by the waters". Apparently this can be seen in various places around the world - if scientist would be willing to admit to it.

[Bible_Gazer]

If it was a local flood.

Then there would be no more floods on the earth because of the rainbow promise, but they stil happen.

So it must be worldwide since it never happened again according to the bible.

[simplejeff]

On 9/6/2012 at 6:08 PM, Bible_Gazer said:

If it was a local flood.

Then there would be no more floods on the earth because of the rainbow promise, but they stil happen.

So it must be worldwide since it never happened again according to the bible.

Amein!  HalleluYAH! 

YHWH'S WORD,  simple ,  truth,  correct,  and always best - just as HE says.