Exodus Passover: Did the firstborn of Egypt go to heaven?

[Steve_S]

We DO know, the Bible doesn't have a caveat with respect to those who haven't heard the gospel, this is VERY clear. If Jesus died to wash away our sins and be our High Priest and intercessor with the Father, how on earth can you get there without Him in any way, shape, or form? The nature of man is sinful and without the cleansing blood of Jesus none can be saved, this is why evangelism is important in and of itself.

If you look back at my post, I DID say that the Church feels it necessary to spread the Gospel so that all would hear it and come to believe and be saved. However, in the event that the Gospel did not reach some people, we do not know where they will be at. Only God knows. We only know that those who hear the Gospel and reject Jesus Christ becomes the unbelievers of the Truth and will not be saved.

There are billions of people who died before Christ was incarnated into the world as a man....and all of them never knew of Jesus Christ, including Abraham. Abraham and all those who lived before Christ never heard of Jesus. Are they ALL condemned to Hell because they were born in a time before Christ came incarnated as a man? I would be very careful of playing God by making such a judgement because it is ONLY God who is the judge. We are not called to judge anyone to Hell. That alone belongs to God.

First off, I'm not playing God, and I don't appreciate you accusing me of it, it's unwarranted. This is a textual discussion and it was quite inappropriate on your part. Secondly, I never said it wasn't God who isn't the judge. But, God left us His word and in His word He reveals the path to salvation:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." It does NOT say "no man who has heard of me cometh unto the father, but by me." It says no man, period. Are you saying this scripture is incorrect? Your implication is that it is. "No man" is BLANKET. That includes all of humanity, clearly. Otherwise, what does His sacrifice mean?

Well, if you are not playing God, then tell me......those who have never heard of Jesus Christ and the Gospel, where will they be when they die? These are people who have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus because they've never heard of Him....so where will they be? You already know my answer. My answer was "I don't know, and God will be the one to judge them" So, now let's hear your answer.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[bornagain2011]

the Bible clearly says that we become His adopted children when we accept Jesus' sacrifice and believe in Him, God only shows mercy for His children. The people who live in very remote locations where they never heard the gospel are without excuse as well, nature shows them the work of God, and they have the moral law written on their hearts. They can try and claim ignorance like people here in the US do and say that there is no God and that evolution created everything, then I think they would go to hell.

You don't have to reject Christ to go to hell, you just have to do nothing! But to go to heaven you must accept the free gift.

God doesn't show mercy for the damned, does He lovingly throw them into hell?! LOL, no!

I believe in predestination, so I believe God has chosen us before we were even created, and the people who are damned to hell are predestined to be damned to hell, doesn't mean we don't make desciples of the nations, because you never know who is meant to be saved or not.

just my 2 cents.

Ignorance does not exist in regards to the Law. For example, every pagan and atheist should know that is immoral to murder, steal, and lie. There is no excuse for this. However, when it comes to the One True God, ignorance DOES exist.....and that is the reason why Christ commanded us to go out and preach the Gospels so all of mankind would know who He is. We are to preach about Christ because people are ignorant of Christ. We are not to preach about murder, stealing, or lying because those are the things already written in the hearts of men.

Yah, I agree with you for the most part, but I am not 100% sure what happens to those people in very remote places, I thought I did but now I'm not too sure, they might end up worshiping nature instead of the Creator. Hmmm, it's an interesting thought. But, I will have to ask Him someday when I get to Heaven.

[Steve_S]

We DO know, the Bible doesn't have a caveat with respect to those who haven't heard the gospel, this is VERY clear. If Jesus died to wash away our sins and be our High Priest and intercessor with the Father, how on earth can you get there without Him in any way, shape, or form? The nature of man is sinful and without the cleansing blood of Jesus none can be saved, this is why evangelism is important in and of itself.

If you look back at my post, I DID say that the Church feels it necessary to spread the Gospel so that all would hear it and come to believe and be saved. However, in the event that the Gospel did not reach some people, we do not know where they will be at. Only God knows. We only know that those who hear the Gospel and reject Jesus Christ becomes the unbelievers of the Truth and will not be saved.

There are billions of people who died before Christ was incarnated into the world as a man....and all of them never knew of Jesus Christ, including Abraham. Abraham and all those who lived before Christ never heard of Jesus. Are they ALL condemned to Hell because they were born in a time before Christ came incarnated as a man? I would be very careful of playing God by making such a judgement because it is ONLY God who is the judge. We are not called to judge anyone to Hell. That alone belongs to God.

First off, I'm not playing God, and I don't appreciate you accusing me of it, it's unwarranted. This is a textual discussion and it was quite inappropriate on your part. Secondly, I never said it wasn't God who isn't the judge. But, God left us His word and in His word He reveals the path to salvation:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." It does NOT say "no man who has heard of me cometh unto the father, but by me." It says no man, period. Are you saying this scripture is incorrect? Your implication is that it is. "No man" is BLANKET. That includes all of humanity, clearly. Otherwise, what does His sacrifice mean?

Well, if you are not playing God, then tell me......those who have never heard of Jesus Christ and the Gospel, where will they be when they die? These are people who have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus because they've never heard of Him....so where will they be? You already know my answer. My answer was "I don't know, and God will be the one to judge them" So, now let's hear your answer.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As I said, instead of quoting Scripture, it would be best if you explain it in your own words. What you quote in scripture are speaking of those who heard the Gospels. Those who heard the Gospel and reject it will not be saved. But what about those who have not heard the Gospel?

This includes all mankind. Otherwise, there would be no reason to evangelize. If you could NOT hear the gospel and get salvation there'd be no reason to go to all the nations.

[Steve_S]

We DO know, the Bible doesn't have a caveat with respect to those who haven't heard the gospel, this is VERY clear. If Jesus died to wash away our sins and be our High Priest and intercessor with the Father, how on earth can you get there without Him in any way, shape, or form? The nature of man is sinful and without the cleansing blood of Jesus none can be saved, this is why evangelism is important in and of itself.

If you look back at my post, I DID say that the Church feels it necessary to spread the Gospel so that all would hear it and come to believe and be saved. However, in the event that the Gospel did not reach some people, we do not know where they will be at. Only God knows. We only know that those who hear the Gospel and reject Jesus Christ becomes the unbelievers of the Truth and will not be saved.

There are billions of people who died before Christ was incarnated into the world as a man....and all of them never knew of Jesus Christ, including Abraham. Abraham and all those who lived before Christ never heard of Jesus. Are they ALL condemned to Hell because they were born in a time before Christ came incarnated as a man? I would be very careful of playing God by making such a judgement because it is ONLY God who is the judge. We are not called to judge anyone to Hell. That alone belongs to God.

First off, I'm not playing God, and I don't appreciate you accusing me of it, it's unwarranted. This is a textual discussion and it was quite inappropriate on your part. Secondly, I never said it wasn't God who isn't the judge. But, God left us His word and in His word He reveals the path to salvation:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." It does NOT say "no man who has heard of me cometh unto the father, but by me." It says no man, period. Are you saying this scripture is incorrect? Your implication is that it is. "No man" is BLANKET. That includes all of humanity, clearly. Otherwise, what does His sacrifice mean?

Well, if you are not playing God, then tell me......those who have never heard of Jesus Christ and the Gospel, where will they be when they die? These are people who have neither accepted nor rejected Jesus because they've never heard of Him....so where will they be? You already know my answer. My answer was "I don't know, and God will be the one to judge them" So, now let's hear your answer.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As I said, instead of quoting Scripture, it would be best if you explain it in your own words. What you quote in scripture are speaking of those who heard the Gospels. Those who heard the Gospel and reject it will not be saved. But what about those who have not heard the Gospel?

This includes all mankind. Otherwise, there would be no reason to evangelize. If you could NOT hear the gospel and get salvation there'd be no reason to go to all the nations.

No, it doesn't. Below is what the Scripture says in its context:

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is clear in Scripture that those who believe in His name will be saved. In order to believe in His name, one must HEAR His name. So, what happens to those who never heard His name or the Gospel. So, what is your answer? I already gave you my answer. So, let's hear your answer.

I just gave it. I do NOT agree with you. It doesn't say "he who hears the Gospel and believeth on him." It says "he that believeth on him." You're adding something that isn't here because you WANT it to be that way. You're inferring something that does not exist in scripture. From the first to the last of the New Testament we are told repeatedly that Jesus is the ONLY way. If people who had never heard of Jesus had another way then He wouldn't be the ONLY way. It's that simple.

[OneLight]

Romans 2:12-16

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Selene is making a very valid point. Not all who have died have had the chance to hear about God the Father, or Jesus, His Son. Paul speaks about those who do not have the law, those who have not heard the law, how God will judge them. If His lawa, while not having the law, is written on their heart, their conscience will bear witness to God and Jesus will judge their heart, or the secrets of the person.

[Steve_S]

Romans 2:12-16

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Selene is making a very valid point. Not all who have died have had the chance to hear about God the Father, or Jesus, His Son. Paul speaks about those who do not have the law, those who have not heard the law, how God will judge them. If His lawa, while not having the law, is written on their heart, their conscience will bear witness to God and Jesus will judge their heart, or the secrets of the person.

I don't agree with this interpretation. Paul was giving an example to back up his previous statement in 2:10-11.

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Which was that we are all in the same boat, so to speak, with regards to sin and that the nature of a Jew and a gentile at that time was the same with regards to sin and that further more there were even gentiles who had the law written on their heart. I think the "secrets of men" is in reference to whether or not they actually have faith and believe on him.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

If there was a law that could have given eternal life then why would we need Jesus?

Here's the crux of it and why I believe what I believe.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If the law is written on a man's heart and he breaks even one of them then would he be held accountable for that?

But, it's not possible for one to follow every law, that's why we need Jesus in the first place.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The only other implication here is that for those who haven't heard the gospel to reject it is that there would be some sort of scale that God would read to one direction or the other and a person's cumulative actions would then determine their salvation. That would imply that one could be righteous on his own.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Thanks for your post Onelight, at the very least it's something different to ponder, that was a very long multipage circular argument.

[bornagain2011]

Predestination....

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”^h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 9:20-24

Glory be to God in the highest! Thank you Lord for choosing me! And us! Amen!

[Guest]

Again I must point that we are to bring the Gospel to "every nation," not every person. Matt. 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Matt. 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Rev. 14:6 "Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” There is no, nor will there ever be, any excuse.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Parker1

[Guest LadyC]

i always thought that every child born went to heaven, regardless. but the other day, in my 90 day journey through the bible, i read something that made me question my previous assumption. i haven't really taken the time to dig deeper into it though, and at the moment i'm not exactly sure where i read what brought it to my mind. i think it may have been somewhere in proverbs. anyway, it was something along the line of grace covering the innocent children of people who feared the Lord. it kinda implied to me that maybe those who were not of godly parents were not covered by God's grace. and given that throughout the OT, God commanded during wartime that even the children of ungodly nations be slain, well, i don't know. it bears looking into.

[Guest]

Again I must point that we are to bring the Gospel to "every nation," not every person. Matt. 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Matt. 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Rev. 14:6 "Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” There is no, nor will there ever be, any excuse.

All the Apostles were preaching to a people. A people make up a nation. St. Peter said that Christians are a holy nation and a priesthood.

Right. But you can't give your interpretation of Scripture if it is not consistent with GOD'S character or other Scripture. GOD knows that "every" human being to have ever lived had, has, or will have personally heard The Word, but the Truth is that every nation that has ever existed, exists, or will exist will have, meeting GOD"S just requirement for all having the chance to choose their Savior. Even Muslims know of Christ, they choose to believe what they do. Those who were considered Righteous before Christ was Crucified were because they knew that they needed a Savior and that GOD would send such a ONE. We must pray for the lost, I agree, but there is only one way to redemption. That Way is Jesus, and only Jesus. That is GOD'S mercy.