Exodus Passover: Did the firstborn of Egypt go to heaven?

[Steve_S]

That's not what I was referring to........

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

What about offending one of the ones who don't believe in Him, is the penalty the same? Why would he specify "believe in me?"

That is true. And further in Matthew 15, a pagan woman came to Jesus asking to heal her daughter. Jesus told her that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel and even told her that it is wrong to give the food of the children to dogs. So, in this passage, whose children was Jesus referring to to the Caanite woman? In the end, even Christ healed the daughter of the pagan woman, not because she was pagan, but because of her faith. This story is told in the same chapter.

Matthew 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

As Christians, are we called to offend unbelievers and to judge them?

I'm not attempting to offend or judge anyone. I'm asking you a legitimate question, that's all. Why are "those who believe in me" specified there? It's a question I've struggled with myself and I have no answer or motive.

[Guest LadyC]

selene, i wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth. nowhere have i ever condemned ANYONE to hell, regardless of age.

what i HAVE said is that you have thus far not proven your point. i've also said that MY understanding of God's character and the words of scripture certainly make room for the possibility that the first born of egypt whom God slayed may not have gone to heaven. I've also stated that this is a subject none of us can be 100% sure of, and that it bears further study.

now, as for your examples of gentiles, you're missing the obvious point here. in your example about the children (when Jesus said suffer the children to come to me) THOSE were children of the jews. their parents were believers.

YES there were gentiles who believed in Christ. absolutely. they weren't jews, but they were still believers. that is the very issue being discussed here. the children of BELIEVERS are sanctified by their parents. scripture is really, really clear about that. scripture does NOT say that children of unbelievers are sanctified because of age or innocense or anything else, so all we can do is speculate.

now, for the THIRD TIME, will you PLEASE respond to me on this.... DID YOU SEE my post where i addressed your specific concerns regarding your own two your old daughter? that was you who asked that question quite some time earlier in this thread wasn't it? or am i confusing you with someone else? if i am, please correct me! and if i'm not confusing you with another member, please acknowledge whether you saw what i wrote to you or not.

[Guest LadyC]

by the way, you're incorrect about the meaning of the scripture in romans. paul wasn't saying anything about gentiles who had never heard God's words. He was talking about the fact that gentiles had never been under the same law that the israelites were under. for example, no gentile has ever been under the law of the sabbath, or the law of clean and unclean foods, etc. those were laws that were given specifically to the jews. only a gentile who was living in the home of a jew (as a servant, for instance) was required to observe hebrew laws. gentiles who came to believe in the God of the israelites, (before Christ) or in Christ Himself (during and after his ministry years) were believers. they had faith. they weren't under the law.

the roman centurion whose child Jesus healed? believer.

the woman with the issue of blood? believer.

any gentile who asked for healing for themselves or their household received it because of their faith.

make no mistake here, i'm not claiming to know all the answers, and i'm not sure what the answer to children of unbelievers is. do they go to hell? i'm not sure. do they go to heaven? you can't be entirely sure of that, either. you can think you are, but in every example you've cited from scripture so far, each and every one of those cases has referenced children of believing parents. you haven't yet provided a biblical example of a child of unbelievers who God saved, and i'm not sure that there is such an example to be found.

[Fez]

So far, although interesting, this entire post has again taught me that only God will judge, and that He is a just, loving and impartial God.

Will we learn through these discussions, but we can never really come to a defining agreement.

I don't think God meant us to.

[gdemoss]

Can you provide any scriptural support anywhere that would indicate that unbelievers may be saved because they haven't heard the gospel?

Butero, these scriptures have had me wondering.

Mat 25:37-39 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Jesus declares that when he comes all gentiles (nations) will be gathered before him and he will judge them. He plainly said that these sheep would not know that they were ministering to him by ministering to his own. I cannot deny the ignorance spoken of here.

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul obtained mercy because he killed Christians ignorantly.

One has to wonder why God doesn't just stick his face through the clouds and speak to each and every one of us, commanding us to repent or be sent to Hell. His ways are not our ways but above our ways. For those born from Adam to the flood there is only one name under heaven by which they must be saved though they never heard it spoken. From the flood to the first advent the same. But then Paul enlightens our minds in Acts 17 and declares that at the times of this ignorance God winked at but now commands everyone everywhere to repent. Does this mean that there is no longer a provision for ignorance? No. God commands everyone everywhere to repent through us and if we fail to bring the gospel unto all then their will be ignorance and God will have mercy upon their ignorance. But unto those who knew they were to preach the gospel but kept silent out of fear and chose to allow the nations to remain ignorant in an attempt to save them through ignorance, these will feel the wrath of God as it is most certainly not his will for people to remain in ignorance.

One of the main reasons for Jesus' return is the churches failure as they have turned back in the day of battle though they were given bows and sent out to fight. When Jesus returns, then their will be no ignorance as ignorance will be done away. All will know him from the least unto the greatest. But until that time their will be a provision for the ignorant.

The knowledgeable servant

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

The ignorant servant

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

We can discuss the finer details trying to understand to whom the Lord will extend mercy but we cannot deny that the Lord will be merciful unto true ignorance.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

I know my Lord better today than I once did. I praise him for the mercy that I obtained for my ignorance. I now know him and therefore work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[Sevenseas]

I thought this was well written:

Man’s Response to God’s Natural Revelation

Man's proper response to the revelation of God should have been worship and grateful acknowledgment: “For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks …” (Romans 1:26b-27a). There is here, I believe, a deadly sequence of events. Rejection of God’s revelation leads to idolatry, and idolatry leads to immorality and man at last plummets into the grossest perversions imaginable.

If you have thought of the heathen as an idolater because he didn’t know any better, Paul insists that he is an idolater because he has refused to know better, suppressing God’s self-revelation.

Whenever we reject one explanation of the facts we must necessarily counter with an alternative. This is precisely the situation with the heathen. They have rejected God’s revelation of Himself and they have replaced it with another. The key word here is ‘exchanged’ (vv. 23, 25, 26). Instead of worshipping the God Who made man in His own image, they made gods in their image. They worshipped the creature rather than the Creator. Bad enough to conceive of God in terms of humanity, but they went far beyond this to represent God in terms of the beasts of the earth. The Greeks had their Apollo, the Romans the eagle, the Egyptians the bull, and the Assyrians the serpent. Paul may have been alluding to these ‘gods.’

If the key word for the rejection and sin of the heathen is “exchanged,” the key expression for the manifestation of the wrath of God in the present is “gave them over” (vv. 24, 26, 28). Because men rejected what was clearly evident about God, God gave men over to idolatry, immorality and perversion. As men practice these things they are getting what they deserve: “Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them” (Romans 1:27b).

The above is a quote and not my words but I do agree with them as they are biblically based and cover the question of those who do not actually

hear the gospel.

I think a person sets them self up as judging God when they cannot accept the fact that the Bible states THERE IS NO EXCUSE.

Now really, that is what the Bible states. I guess if someone wants to argue with that, then should address God as He is the one who

had those words written by the Apostle Paul.

[gdemoss]

Gdemoss, you do make some interesting points, but I don't see the scriptures the way you do.

I understand that your views are different than mine. I gave my understanding for your consideration.

[Steve_S]

This thread has been going for a while and there's been a lot of back and forth. What is so difficult to understand with regards to:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It's crystal clear.

[Steve_S]

This thread has been going for a while and there's been a lot of back and forth. What is so difficult to understand with regards to:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It's crystal clear.

As I always pointed out to you, Christ is salvation. But in order for a person to either accept or reject Christ, he/she must first hear of Christ. As I even pointed out to you, there are millions of people who died before Christ came to earth incarnated as man. How can these people hear of Christ when they were born in a time before Christ came to earth? Are they all condemned to Hell? And what of the person today who never heard of Christ or read the Holy Bible? This is why I told you in the beginning that I don't know where these people would be and God will be the one to judge them. You, on the other hand, already claim to know where they will be.

Only the unbeliever who deliberately reject God will not be saved. That is clearly taught in the Bible.

I know what the Bible says. There is no Biblical caveat on this matter. It says that people who reject God will not be saved and also says that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. If the only way to the Father is through the Son then of course those who reject Him will not get salvation. But only....means only. This would be a lie, otherwise, and God doesn't lie.

[Steve_S]

This thread has been going for a while and there's been a lot of back and forth. What is so difficult to understand with regards to:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It's crystal clear.

As I always pointed out to you, Christ is salvation. But in order for a person to either accept or reject Christ, he/she must first hear of Christ. As I even pointed out to you, there are millions of people who died before Christ came to earth incarnated as man. How can these people hear of Christ when they were born in a time before Christ came to earth? Are they all condemned to Hell? And what of the person today who never heard of Christ or read the Holy Bible? This is why I told you in the beginning that I don't know where these people would be and God will be the one to judge them. You, on the other hand, already claim to know where they will be.

Only the unbeliever who deliberately reject God will not be saved. That is clearly taught in the Bible.

I know what the Bible says. There is no Biblical caveat on this matter. It says that people who reject God will not be saved and also says that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. If the only way to the Father is through the Son then of course those who reject Him will not get salvation. But only....means only. This would be a lie, otherwise, and God doesn't lie.

You and I both agree that the only way to salvation is Jesus Christ. You and I both agree that those who rejected Christ will not be saved. The only disagreement between you and me are those who have not heard of Jesus Christ. In other words, my brother, the Bible is silent about what happens to those who have never heard of Christ. It does not say if they are saved or not.....only that God will judge them. I go by what the Bible says on this one.....that God will be the one to judge them. This is why I told you that I don't know what happens to them. I don't know simply because I don't know God's judgement on them. You, on the other hand, have already judged them unsaved. That's the difference.

I haven't judged anyone, the Bible states that the only way to the father is through the Son, clearly. If trusting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and being washed in the blood of his sacrifice is the only possible way to eternal life then how on earth are there any others.