New City Jerusalem

[Sevenseas]

anybody wanna buy some swamp land? for the mud slinging?

[Fez]

Shalom, Fez.

And your assumption is based on ... ? What? Some "gut feeling?" Absurd. God gives us a brain for a reason! USE IT!

Firstly, he DID make an assumption! He assumed that the city was in the shape of a cube! Apparently, you have, too! The Scriptures do not SAY that, however; therefore, it is an ASSUMPTION!

I find your tone argumentative and sarcastic. Capitals denote shouting on any forum, something you well know.

You violated the TOS, please don't do it again.

I've been wrestling with this for a while now, and the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) will not give me peace about this until I've made this right. You are right; I was being too argumentative and sarcastic. Although I will often use capitals for emphasis, I admit that it could have been mistaken for shouting, and had I been talking to OneLight in person, I may have raised my voice in reality, too. What's worse is that I was treating a brother in a condescending way and treating the Ruach haQodesh within him the same way in the process.

I did this publicly in this thread; so, I make this apology publicly in this thread as well:

...

You fail to answer the question. How is the length, breadth and height equal at the top of a pyramid?

That's the trouble with what you are saying, "it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math". I prefer to stick with what scripture says and not try to complicate it with an imagination, a visualization, a drawing or math. Your whole assumption is based on your own understanding, not scripture. The same God who can take a person from point A to point B in an instant, Who can hold up the sides of a sea while His people pass through, Who can raise the dead, Who can feed thousands with a meal for one, can make this work perfectly as He states.

By the way, equal means equal ... top, bottom, side to side, makes no difference.

I have quoted your post with hopes of getting your attention only.

Shalom, OneLight.

I do apologize for being rude to you and the Holy Spirit within you. I apologize for insulting you and for "shouting" at you. I'm truly sorry for mistreating you as a brother in the Messiah, and I'll do my best not to do it again, not to you or to anyone else.

Shalom, again, Fez.

And, to you, too, brother, I apologize for being sarcastic and combative and for violating the TOS in this way, too. I am sorry, and I won't do it again with the LORD'S help.

No sweat at all brother. I can see how much the topic means to you, and how much study you give it.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

Retro, I've always understood/been taught that pyramids are occultic. The Egyptians used them; they were certainly no paragons of correct religion. That's one reason I don't buy the pyramid, in fact, it's THE reason. The cube analogy makes more sense. But, since the cube is actually descriptive of the New Jerusalem, and in Scripture, Jesus speaks of believers as being a city set on a hill (like Jerusalem on Mt. Zion) that's how I understand New Jerusalem...as the resurrected Believers of all ages.

Let me try to say this in the RIGHT way, for a change: Yes, I too was brought up to believe that pyramids were part of the occult; so I can understand your reluctance.

Then, I started to study mathematics in school with a passion and I ran into great minds like those of Sir Isaac Newton, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz, Carl Friedrich Gauss, and Georg Friedrich Riemann, and came to realize that Mathematics is one of the great creations of God Almighty! HaSatan may arrest some of the mathematics to his own ends, but the pyramid is a basic shape that GOD made, not the devil! In truth, there is nothing either good or bad in the shape itself; it is how that shape is used by the one who uses it. So, if a designer and builder such as Chanokh (Enoch, who walked with God) takes the shape for one of his architectures (the Great Pyramid of Giza is attributed to him by Arabian literature), or a occultist and astrologer takes the shape and abuses (abnormally uses) the shape to his own ends, the good or bad found there is in the user, not in the shape! There is nothing inheritantly evil in the shape of a pyramid. In fact, the tetrahedron, a three sided pyramid, is the basic shape of the methane (CH₄) and carbon tetrachloride (CCl₄) molecules. The octahedron, an eight sided shape consisting of two four-sided pyramids stuck together at their bases, is the basic shape of the sulfur hexafluoride (SF₆) molecule. These molecules are common in God's Nature.

From the biblical perspective, textually speaking the Bible is made up of sixty-six books written by several authors (how many only God knows for sure) who were all inspired by the one Holy Spirit of God. These authors all had certain relationships to one another. First, they all - being Isra'elites - were familar with the first five books of the Bible, which the Jews know as the Torah and Christians often call the Pentateuch. The whole Tanakh (an acronym, "T-N-K," that stands for "Torah - Navi'iym - Ketuviym," meaning "Law or rather Instruction - Prophets - Writings"), however, was developed one book at a time. Joshua and Judges and Ruth were written as history after the Exodus (which was covered by Moses in the Torah) and before the times of the kings (which began in Sh'mu'el's books). The four books of Sh'mu'el (Samuel), now divided into 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings, were written over time as a history. Although it was begun by Sh'mu'el, it ended with some other chronologer writing its end. The same is probably true for the Chronicles of the Kings in its two volumes. The Psalms were primarily written by David but by others as well. It's a song book that was compiled even after the Captivity to Babylon and Persia returned. The books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are attributed to the wisdom of Shlomo or Solomon. Dani'el and Esther in particular are books written during the years of the Captivity in Babylon and Persia. Ezra and Nehemiah are books written at the end of the Captivity as the Jews were returning to the Land of Isra'el. And, the prophets were given their prophecies at various times to the Isra'elites and Jews to give God's judgments, instructions, encouragement and lessons to learn for different situations. We don't really know where to place the book of Job, which is about a man named "Iyov" ("Job") who some think was a contemporary with Avraham while others believe him to be later in history. After the "400 silent years," the history picks up again in the four viewpoints of the life of the Messiah, Yeshua` the Son of David, the Son of God, called the "Gospels" and the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Then, we have a collection of letters from the Apostle Paul to various churches, the letter to the Hebrews from whom we don't know, the letters from the Apostles Peter, James and Jude, and then the singular prophetic book, the Revealing of the Master Yeshua` the Messiah (the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ).

When looking at this Book of Books, we must be careful what we can legitimately link together between books. There are various relationships in play: First, they are ALL inspired by the Ruach haQodesh, but literarily speaking, some books, even if they contain similar phrases, do not go together! For instance, sometimes Jeremiah 4:23 is thought to go together with Genesis 1:2 because both verses use the phrase "without form and void" in the KJV. This has led to certain people making the claim that Jeremiah 4 is about the Creation! However, the truth is that this is simply an unfortunate case of poor word choices in translation. When one reads this verse in context, its meaning becomes clear. Here's the same passage in a different version, the Complete Jewish Bible:

Jeremiah 4:1-26

4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai, “yes, return to me; and if you will banish your abominations from my presence without wandering astray again;

2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’ in truth, justice and righteousness; then the nations will bless themselves by him, and in him will they glory.”

3 For here is what Adonai says to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim:

“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed, and do not sow among thorns.”

4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim, circumcise yourselves for Adonai,

remove the foreskins of your heart! Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire, burning so hot that no one can quench it, because of how evil your actions are.

5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim; say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’ Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble! Let us go to the fortified cities!’

6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon, head for cover without delay. For I will bring disaster from the north, yes, dire destruction. 7 A lion has risen from his lair, a destroyer of nations has set out, left his own place to ruin your land, to demolish and depopulate your cities.”

8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth, lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger has not turned away from us.

9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai, “the king’s heart will fail him, likewise the princes’; the cohanim will be appalled and the prophets stupefied.”

10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”

11 “At that time it will be said of this people and of Yerushalayim:

‘A scorching wind from the desert heights is sweeping down on my people. ’It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;

12 this wind of mine is too strong for that. Now I will pass sentence on them.”

13 Here he comes, like the clouds, his chariots like the whirlwind, his horses faster than eagles! Woe to us, we are doomed!

14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim, so that you can be saved. How long will you harbor within yourselves your evil thoughts?

15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim:

16 “Report it to the nations, proclaim about Yerushalayim: ‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country, watching and shouting their war cry against the cities of Y’hudah.’

17 Like guards in a field they surround her, because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.

18 “Your own ways and your actions have brought these things on yourselves. This is your wickedness, so bitter! It has reached your very heart.”

19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain! My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! — because I have heard the shofar sound; it’s the call to war.

20 The news is disaster after disaster! All the land is ruined! My tents are suddenly destroyed, my tent curtains in an instant.

21 How long must I see that signal and hear the shofar sound?

22 “It is because my people are foolish — they do not know me; they are stupid children, without understanding, wise when doing evil; but they don’t know how to do good.”

23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void — and at the sky — it had no light.

24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook — all the hills moved back and forth.

25 I looked, and there was no human being; all the birds in the air had fled.

26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert, all the land’s cities were razed to the ground at the presence of Adonai, before his burning anger.

CJB

The key words are "Dan" and "Efrayim" in verse 15. This passage is not about the Creation; it is about the invasion and destruction of Northern Isra'el by the Assyrians! Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) also warns Y'hudah and Yerushalayim, Judah and Jerusalem, where the Southern Kingdom of Judah lived, to change THEIR attitudes and repent so they wouldn't fall prey to the same mischief in verses 4 through 10! Then Yirmeyahu prophesied of the impending doom of the Southern Kingdom, as well! So, verse 23 is about the destruction of the Land of Isra'el circa 689 B.C. and the subsequent tribute that the Southern Kingdom paid to the king of Assyria, Sennacherib.

So, when you equate the description of the New Jerusalem to the believers as a "city set on a hill" found in Matthew's Gospel at Matthew 5:14, you are defying two natural barriers. First, it is a different book by a different human author. We don't even know if it was written and in circulation yet when Revelation was being written. So, literarily speaking, why should they be linked in thought at all? Two different books, two different authors, unrelated subject matter. The only way one could even assume that such a connection was valid would be by one's own prejudice!

Second, there is a time barrier in that Matthew 5 was DURING the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, and Revelation was AFTER the Messiah's rejection, death, burial and resurrection when the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom was rescinded and postponed until His Second Coming! An analogy between these two is forced and is purely from the allegorical intepretation of Scripture and not from any legitimate connection between the two ... IMO.

The current elevation of the Old City of Yerushalayim is 2,490 feet. That's 150 feet less than 1/2 a mile (2,640 feet). How does that compare to a city that is said to be 1,500 miles high?

Edited November 28, 2012 by GoldenEagle
edit to correct Scripture formatting to reduce lenght of post.

[Bold Believer]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

Retro, I've always understood/been taught that pyramids are occultic. The Egyptians used them; they were certainly no paragons of correct religion. That's one reason I don't buy the pyramid, in fact, it's THE reason. The cube analogy makes more sense. But, since the cube is actually descriptive of the New Jerusalem, and in Scripture, Jesus speaks of believers as being a city set on a hill (like Jerusalem on Mt. Zion) that's how I understand New Jerusalem...as the resurrected Believers of all ages.

Let me try to say this in the RIGHT way, for a change: Yes, I too was brought up to believe that pyramids were part of the occult; so I can understand your reluctance.

Then, I started to study mathematics in school with a passion and I ran into great minds like those of Sir Isaac Newton, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz, Carl Friedrich Gauss, and Georg Friedrich Riemann, and came to realize that Mathematics is one of the great creations of God Almighty! HaSatan may arrest some of the mathematics to his own ends, but the pyramid is a basic shape that GOD made, not the devil! In truth, there is nothing either good or bad in the shape itself; it is how that shape is used by the one who uses it. So, if a designer and builder such as Chanokh (Enoch, who walked with God) takes the shape for one of his architectures (the Great Pyramid of Giza is attributed to him by Arabian literature), or a occultist and astrologer takes the shape and abuses (abnormally uses) the shape to his own ends, the good or bad found there is in the user, not in the shape! There is nothing inheritantly evil in the shape of a pyramid. In fact, the tetrahedron, a three sided pyramid, is the basic shape of the methane (CH₄) and carbon tetrachloride (CCl₄) molecules. The octahedron, an eight sided shape consisting of two four-sided pyramids stuck together at their bases, is the basic shape of the sulfur hexafluoride (SF₆) molecule. These molecules are common in God's Nature.

From the biblical perspective, textually speaking the Bible is made up of sixty-six books written by several authors (how many only God knows for sure) who were all inspired by the one Holy Spirit of God. These authors all had certain relationships to one another. First, they all - being Isra'elites - were familar with the first five books of the Bible, which the Jews know as the Torah and Christians often call the Pentateuch. The whole Tanakh (an acronym, "T-N-K," that stands for "Torah - Navi'iym - Ketuviym," meaning "Law or rather Instruction - Prophets - Writings"), however, was developed one book at a time. Joshua and Judges and Ruth were written as history after the Exodus (which was covered by Moses in the Torah) and before the times of the kings (which began in Sh'mu'el's books). The four books of Sh'mu'el (Samuel), now divided into 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings, were written over time as a history. Although it was begun by Sh'mu'el, it ended with some other chronologer writing its end. The same is probably true for the Chronicles of the Kings in its two volumes. The Psalms were primarily written by David but by others as well. It's a song book that was compiled even after the Captivity to Babylon and Persia returned. The books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are attributed to the wisdom of Shlomo or Solomon. Dani'el and Esther in particular are books written during the years of the Captivity in Babylon and Persia. Ezra and Nehemiah are books written at the end of the Captivity as the Jews were returning to the Land of Isra'el. And, the prophets were given their prophecies at various times to the Isra'elites and Jews to give God's judgments, instructions, encouragement and lessons to learn for different situations. We don't really know where to place the book of Job, which is about a man named "Iyov" ("Job") who some think was a contemporary with Avraham while others believe him to be later in history. After the "400 silent years," the history picks up again in the four viewpoints of the life of the Messiah, Yeshua` the Son of David, the Son of God, called the "Gospels" and the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Then, we have a collection of letters from the Apostle Paul to various churches, the letter to the Hebrews from whom we don't know, the letters from the Apostles Peter, James and Jude, and then the singular prophetic book, the Revealing of the Master Yeshua` the Messiah (the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ).

When looking at this Book of Books, we must be careful what we can legitimately link together between books. There are various relationships in play: First, they are ALL inspired by the Ruach haQodesh, but literarily speaking, some books, even if they contain similar phrases, do not go together! For instance, sometimes Jeremiah 4:23 is thought to go together with Genesis 1:2 because both verses use the phrase "without form and void" in the KJV. This has led to certain people making the claim that Jeremiah 4 is about the Creation! However, the truth is that this is simply an unfortunate case of poor word choices in translation. When one reads this verse in context, its meaning becomes clear. Here's the same passage in a different version, the Complete Jewish Bible:

Jeremiah 4:1-26

4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai, “yes, return to me; and if you will banish your abominations from my presence without wandering astray again;

2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’ in truth, justice and righteousness; then the nations will bless themselves by him, and in him will they glory.”

3 For here is what Adonai says to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim:

“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed, and do not sow among thorns.”

4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim, circumcise yourselves for Adonai,

remove the foreskins of your heart! Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire, burning so hot that no one can quench it, because of how evil your actions are.

5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim; say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’ Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble! Let us go to the fortified cities!’

6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon, head for cover without delay. For I will bring disaster from the north, yes, dire destruction. 7 A lion has risen from his lair, a destroyer of nations has set out, left his own place to ruin your land, to demolish and depopulate your cities.”

8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth, lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger has not turned away from us.

9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai, “the king’s heart will fail him, likewise the princes’; the cohanim will be appalled and the prophets stupefied.”

10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”

11 “At that time it will be said of this people and of Yerushalayim:

‘A scorching wind from the desert heights is sweeping down on my people. ’It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;

12 this wind of mine is too strong for that. Now I will pass sentence on them.”

13 Here he comes, like the clouds, his chariots like the whirlwind, his horses faster than eagles! Woe to us, we are doomed!

14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim, so that you can be saved. How long will you harbor within yourselves your evil thoughts?

15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim:

16 “Report it to the nations, proclaim about Yerushalayim: ‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country, watching and shouting their war cry against the cities of Y’hudah.’

17 Like guards in a field they surround her, because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.

18 “Your own ways and your actions have brought these things on yourselves. This is your wickedness, so bitter! It has reached your very heart.”

19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain! My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! — because I have heard the shofar sound; it’s the call to war.

20 The news is disaster after disaster! All the land is ruined! My tents are suddenly destroyed, my tent curtains in an instant.

21 How long must I see that signal and hear the shofar sound?

22 “It is because my people are foolish — they do not know me; they are stupid children, without understanding, wise when doing evil; but they don’t know how to do good.”

23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void — and at the sky — it had no light.

24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook — all the hills moved back and forth.

25 I looked, and there was no human being; all the birds in the air had fled.

26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert, all the land’s cities were razed to the ground at the presence of Adonai, before his burning anger.

CJB

The key words are "Dan" and "Efrayim" in verse 15. This passage is not about the Creation; it is about the invasion and destruction of Northern Isra'el by the Assyrians! Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) also warns Y'hudah and Yerushalayim, Judah and Jerusalem, where the Southern Kingdom of Judah lived, to change THEIR attitudes and repent so they wouldn't fall prey to the same mischief in verses 4 through 10! Then Yirmeyahu prophesied of the impending doom of the Southern Kingdom, as well! So, verse 23 is about the destruction of the Land of Isra'el circa 689 B.C. and the subsequent tribute that the Southern Kingdom paid to the king of Assyria, Sennacherib.

So, when you equate the description of the New Jerusalem to the believers as a "city set on a hill" found in Matthew's Gospel at Matthew 5:14, you are defying two natural barriers. First, it is a different book by a different human author. We don't even know if it was written and in circulation yet when Revelation was being written. So, literarily speaking, why should they be linked in thought at all? Two different books, two different authors, unrelated subject matter. The only way one could even assume that such a connection was valid would be by one's own prejudice!

Second, there is a time barrier in that Matthew 5 was DURING the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, and Revelation was AFTER the Messiah's rejection, death, burial and resurrection when the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom was rescinded and postponed until His Second Coming! An analogy between these two is forced and is purely from the allegorical intepretation of Scripture and not from any legitimate connection between the two ... IMO.

The current elevation of the Old City of Yerushalayim is 2,490 feet. That's 150 feet less than 1/2 a mile (2,640 feet). How does that compare to a city that is said to be 1,500 miles high?

I don't believe John's talking about an actual brick and mortar city. God's not bound by time Roy, you know that. So when Jesus describes Believers as a city set on a hill, and then the writer of Hebrews speaks of the New Jerusalem as 'our mother which is above' (as does Paul in Galatians), I'm led to believe John is simply referring to the Resurrected Church, not a city.

Regarding Enoch: wasn't there more than one Enoch in Scripture? Cain had a son named Enoch, and so did Jared, and as near as I can tell from the text, they are two different men. I could see Cain's son making a pyramidic structure, but not Jared's, especially since it appears that Jared's son Enoch was more devoted to the study of righteousness than things down here.

[OneLight]

Shalom, OneLight.

I do apologize for being rude to you and the Holy Spirit within you. I apologize for insulting you and for "shouting" at you. I'm truly sorry for mistreating you as a brother in the Messiah, and I'll do my best not to do it again, not to you or to anyone else.

Shalom Brother,

I did not take anything personal. The truth is, neither of us will know which is true until we see the New Jerusalem. Both of us could be wrong.

God Bless,

Alan

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

Shalom, Bold Believer.

Retro, I've always understood/been taught that pyramids are occultic. The Egyptians used them; they were certainly no paragons of correct religion. That's one reason I don't buy the pyramid, in fact, it's THE reason. The cube analogy makes more sense. But, since the cube is actually descriptive of the New Jerusalem, and in Scripture, Jesus speaks of believers as being a city set on a hill (like Jerusalem on Mt. Zion) that's how I understand New Jerusalem...as the resurrected Believers of all ages.

Let me try to say this in the RIGHT way, for a change: Yes, I too was brought up to believe that pyramids were part of the occult; so I can understand your reluctance.

Then, I started to study mathematics in school with a passion and I ran into great minds like those of Sir Isaac Newton, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz, Carl Friedrich Gauss, and Georg Friedrich Riemann, and came to realize that Mathematics is one of the great creations of God Almighty! HaSatan may arrest some of the mathematics to his own ends, but the pyramid is a basic shape that GOD made, not the devil! In truth, there is nothing either good or bad in the shape itself; it is how that shape is used by the one who uses it. So, if a designer and builder such as Chanokh (Enoch, who walked with God) takes the shape for one of his architectures (the Great Pyramid of Giza is attributed to him by Arabian literature), or a occultist and astrologer takes the shape and abuses (abnormally uses) the shape to his own ends, the good or bad found there is in the user, not in the shape! There is nothing inheritantly evil in the shape of a pyramid. In fact, the tetrahedron, a three sided pyramid, is the basic shape of the methane (CH₄) and carbon tetrachloride (CCl₄) molecules. The octahedron, an eight sided shape consisting of two four-sided pyramids stuck together at their bases, is the basic shape of the sulfur hexafluoride (SF₆) molecule. These molecules are common in God's Nature.

From the biblical perspective, textually speaking the Bible is made up of sixty-six books written by several authors (how many only God knows for sure) who were all inspired by the one Holy Spirit of God. These authors all had certain relationships to one another. First, they all - being Isra'elites - were familar with the first five books of the Bible, which the Jews know as the Torah and Christians often call the Pentateuch. The whole Tanakh (an acronym, "T-N-K," that stands for "Torah - Navi'iym - Ketuviym," meaning "Law or rather Instruction - Prophets - Writings"), however, was developed one book at a time. Joshua and Judges and Ruth were written as history after the Exodus (which was covered by Moses in the Torah) and before the times of the kings (which began in Sh'mu'el's books). The four books of Sh'mu'el (Samuel), now divided into 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings, were written over time as a history. Although it was begun by Sh'mu'el, it ended with some other chronologer writing its end. The same is probably true for the Chronicles of the Kings in its two volumes. The Psalms were primarily written by David but by others as well. It's a song book that was compiled even after the Captivity to Babylon and Persia returned. The books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are attributed to the wisdom of Shlomo or Solomon. Dani'el and Esther in particular are books written during the years of the Captivity in Babylon and Persia. Ezra and Nehemiah are books written at the end of the Captivity as the Jews were returning to the Land of Isra'el. And, the prophets were given their prophecies at various times to the Isra'elites and Jews to give God's judgments, instructions, encouragement and lessons to learn for different situations. We don't really know where to place the book of Job, which is about a man named "Iyov" ("Job") who some think was a contemporary with Avraham while others believe him to be later in history. After the "400 silent years," the history picks up again in the four viewpoints of the life of the Messiah, Yeshua` the Son of David, the Son of God, called the "Gospels" and the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Then, we have a collection of letters from the Apostle Paul to various churches, the letter to the Hebrews from whom we don't know, the letters from the Apostles Peter, James and Jude, and then the singular prophetic book, the Revealing of the Master Yeshua` the Messiah (the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ).

When looking at this Book of Books, we must be careful what we can legitimately link together between books. There are various relationships in play: First, they are ALL inspired by the Ruach haQodesh, but literarily speaking, some books, even if they contain similar phrases, do not go together! For instance, sometimes Jeremiah 4:23 is thought to go together with Genesis 1:2 because both verses use the phrase "without form and void" in the KJV. This has led to certain people making the claim that Jeremiah 4 is about the Creation! However, the truth is that this is simply an unfortunate case of poor word choices in translation. When one reads this verse in context, its meaning becomes clear. Here's the same passage in a different version, the Complete Jewish Bible:

Jeremiah 4:1-26

4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai, “yes, return to me; and if you will banish your abominations from my presence without wandering astray again;

2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’ in truth, justice and righteousness; then the nations will bless themselves by him, and in him will they glory.”

3 For here is what Adonai says to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim:

“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed, and do not sow among thorns.”

4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim, circumcise yourselves for Adonai,

remove the foreskins of your heart! Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire, burning so hot that no one can quench it, because of how evil your actions are.

5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim; say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’ Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble! Let us go to the fortified cities!’

6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon, head for cover without delay. For I will bring disaster from the north, yes, dire destruction. 7 A lion has risen from his lair, a destroyer of nations has set out, left his own place to ruin your land, to demolish and depopulate your cities.”

8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth, lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger has not turned away from us.

9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai, “the king’s heart will fail him, likewise the princes’; the cohanim will be appalled and the prophets stupefied.”

10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”

11 “At that time it will be said of this people and of Yerushalayim:

‘A scorching wind from the desert heights is sweeping down on my people. ’It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;

12 this wind of mine is too strong for that. Now I will pass sentence on them.”

13 Here he comes, like the clouds, his chariots like the whirlwind, his horses faster than eagles! Woe to us, we are doomed!

14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim, so that you can be saved. How long will you harbor within yourselves your evil thoughts?

15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim:

16 “Report it to the nations, proclaim about Yerushalayim: ‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country, watching and shouting their war cry against the cities of Y’hudah.’

17 Like guards in a field they surround her, because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.

18 “Your own ways and your actions have brought these things on yourselves. This is your wickedness, so bitter! It has reached your very heart.”

19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain! My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! — because I have heard the shofar sound; it’s the call to war.

20 The news is disaster after disaster! All the land is ruined! My tents are suddenly destroyed, my tent curtains in an instant.

21 How long must I see that signal and hear the shofar sound?

22 “It is because my people are foolish — they do not know me; they are stupid children, without understanding, wise when doing evil; but they don’t know how to do good.”

23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void — and at the sky — it had no light.

24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook — all the hills moved back and forth.

25 I looked, and there was no human being; all the birds in the air had fled.

26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert, all the land’s cities were razed to the ground at the presence of Adonai, before his burning anger.

CJB

The key words are "Dan" and "Efrayim" in verse 15. This passage is not about the Creation; it is about the invasion and destruction of Northern Isra'el by the Assyrians! Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) also warns Y'hudah and Yerushalayim, Judah and Jerusalem, where the Southern Kingdom of Judah lived, to change THEIR attitudes and repent so they wouldn't fall prey to the same mischief in verses 4 through 10! Then Yirmeyahu prophesied of the impending doom of the Southern Kingdom, as well! So, verse 23 is about the destruction of the Land of Isra'el circa 689 B.C. and the subsequent tribute that the Southern Kingdom paid to the king of Assyria, Sennacherib.

So, when you equate the description of the New Jerusalem to the believers as a "city set on a hill" found in Matthew's Gospel at Matthew 5:14, you are defying two natural barriers. First, it is a different book by a different human author. We don't even know if it was written and in circulation yet when Revelation was being written. So, literarily speaking, why should they be linked in thought at all? Two different books, two different authors, unrelated subject matter. The only way one could even assume that such a connection was valid would be by one's own prejudice!

Second, there is a time barrier in that Matthew 5 was DURING the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, and Revelation was AFTER the Messiah's rejection, death, burial and resurrection when the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom was rescinded and postponed until His Second Coming! An analogy between these two is forced and is purely from the allegorical intepretation of Scripture and not from any legitimate connection between the two ... IMO.

The current elevation of the Old City of Yerushalayim is 2,490 feet. That's 150 feet less than 1/2 a mile (2,640 feet). How does that compare to a city that is said to be 1,500 miles high?

I don't believe John's talking about an actual brick and mortar city. God's not bound by time Roy, you know that. So when Jesus describes Believers as a city set on a hill, and then the writer of Hebrews speaks of the New Jerusalem as 'our mother which is above' (as does Paul in Galatians), I'm led to believe John is simply referring to the Resurrected Church, not a city.

Regarding Enoch: wasn't there more than one Enoch in Scripture? Cain had a son named Enoch, and so did Jared, and as near as I can tell from the text, they are two different men. I could see Cain's son making a pyramidic structure, but not Jared's, especially since it appears that Jared's son Enoch was more devoted to the study of righteousness than things down here.

No, not "actual brick and mortar city," but an "actual jasper and gold city." Right, God's not bound by time, but we are, and Yochanan called the city the "bride," not the people within it! He called it that twice, once as a metaphor and the other time as a simile. It's not a mystery; the city was just "all decked out" like a new bride, beautiful in its pristine condition!

Well, the story goes that Adam predicted two catastrophes, one a deluge of water and the other a deluge of fire. So, Chanokh built two structures one of red brick with white writing and the other of white stone with red writing to preserve the knowledge of the antediluvian world through the flood. Both structures were to withstand the flood, but only the one still extant, the one of white stone, would survive the fire. This is supposed to be the Great Pyramid. And, although the pyramid survived, the white limestone has been removed, ravaged by a greedy sheik.

Furthermore, the name of Qayin's son Chanokh gave Qayin the idea for the name of the first city. Qayin and his sister/wife left the "(sur)face of the earth," and lived in a place called "Nowd" which means "wandering." I believe that he moved into an underground cavern and built his city there, raising his family there, out of sight of those who might be able to find him and ignore the mark that God put upon him. If so, he and his progeny lived within this cavern system until Lamekh killed another in self defence. We are told that one of his children, Yaval, was the first to live in tents. I believe, therefore, that it was in his lifetime that men began to emerge from underground Chanokh. These were the fathers of the "daughters of men" that the "sons of God," a term of prejudice for the high leaders of the progeny of Shet, since they were allowed to live on the surface of the earth "within God's sight." Thus, since it was Adam who made the prophecy (who lived for 950 years and who saw His great ... great grandson Chanokh in person before his death, it was the "seventh from Adam" who built the pyramid.

Besides, the Arabic legend names him as the seventh from Adam. Even if you think somehow that the pyramid is a bad thing (which it's not), it shouldn't surprise you because after Chanokh was taken by God, only eight souls survived the Flood, meaning the rest of civilization was deplorable.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, OneLight (Alan).

Shalom, OneLight.

I do apologize for being rude to you and the Holy Spirit within you. I apologize for insulting you and for "shouting" at you. I'm truly sorry for mistreating you as a brother in the Messiah, and I'll do my best not to do it again, not to you or to anyone else.

Shalom Brother,

I did not take anything personal. The truth is, neither of us will know which is true until we see the New Jerusalem. Both of us could be wrong.

God Bless,

Alan

Thanks for that. Yes, you're probably right, and with as little information as we've been given, we both probably are wrong! LOL!

[Myriad Force]

Those trying to figure out what the New Jerusalem is should read Revelation 3:12 and Revelation 21:9-11.

It's that Simple.

Once you move beyond the simplicity of it, it gets complicated.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Myriad Force

[Montana Marv]

The New Jerusalem will be a magniciant home for us here on the New Earth after the 1000 year reign of Christ here on the old earth.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[John Robinson]

I for one don't care if it's a cube, pyramid, tetrahedron, or a Moebius strip. God made it for us, and I'm sure it'll be beyond anything our minds can comprehend.