III. Legalism: You May Have Legalism(And Not Even Know It)In Your Life

[Sevenseas]

I have to go back to this for a minute:

"6. If you focus more on your fellow Christians church attendance, tithing, version of the Bible, outward appearance rather than getting to know others and accepting them where they’re at in their walk with the Lord."

What if this were re-worded?

6. If you focus more on what is wrong with your fellow Christians than what is good, righteous, holy, and beneficial about the person.

1 Thes. 5:11 -

Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. (NASB)

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do . (KJV)

Col. 3

12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience ; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone ; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body ; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father. (NASB)

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved , bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. (KJV)

2 John 1

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. (KJV)

I agree...good wording while keeping the thought intact

I get the impression both here and in church (and I have had quite a few years of that under the belt from the age of 5 until present) that the critique of

the fellow believer favors the negative scale rather than the positive and I know this because I used to be very good at it

The last 10 years or so, the weight is more evenly distributed but item Do not speak against another is paramount to that balance

I had that really brought home to me when I heard what others were saying about me.

[gdemoss]

Excellent verses. They really spoke to me. They said "When something is amiss, Gary, call upon me so that I can be your strength and give unto you what you need to overcome sin that dwells within you and wants to manifest into the world through your body, it is I 'Christ' who will be your strength in your time of need."

Is God angry then with the one who continues in sin though he gave them everything they needed to achieve success and overcome sin within them?

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Some people seem to think that God doesn't get angry with his people anymore because Jesus came and died. That is a lie.

I agree God gives us strength to overcome.

"Children of disobedience" I believe in context with the following verse 7 refers to those who are lost in the passage your quoting. "Walked" and "lived" would indicate that this is a past condition. What do you think?

Col. 3:1-17 Not Carnality but Christ

3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. ² Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. ³ For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. ⁴ When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

⁵ Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. ⁶ Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, ⁷ in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

⁸ But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. ⁹ Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, ¹⁰ and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, ¹¹ where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christis all and in all.

Character of the New Man

¹² Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; ¹³ bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. ¹⁴ But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. ¹⁵ And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. ¹⁶ Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. ¹⁷ And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

God bless,

GE

Agreed Jon, a past condition he was warning them not to make a present one again.

[gdemoss]

Thanks for loving me enough to seek to correct that which you believe to be in error. I read what you wrote and disagree with your position. My fear is that men who hold to your position are going to be getting a wake up call in the near future.

Have you not read where it is written that there were believers in Corinth who had died due to the intense chastening of the Lord? Have you not read where Ananias was struck down dead for his sin before all? Is there no fear of God before your eyes? Have you ever felt the rod of correction upon your back by the Father? Have you ever had him threaten to beat you with the fist of another man?

Jer 5:3 O LORD, [are] not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, [but] they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.

That was written about believers. About his people. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Don't think that if your getting away with your sin that your a son who is saved as those he loves he chastens. Chastening can end in death. God did not change between the OT and the NT. What changed was the method by which he did the exact same thing he was doing before. Righteousness never changed. The way to lead a man unto righteousness did.

Gary,Thank God for your humbleness and gentleness as you give answers and questions on this board. I have been reading your posts for a long time and I know you are a man who is solely seeking truth and not some pretense or need to be "right". Brother, not only have I read of what the Lord does to a believer who insists on sinning, but I have personally been on the end of that rod of correction myself. It is a grievous and very horrible thing to endure. But we must keep in context why it is that he does this. Scripture says for one reason:

Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

Heb 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

We are disciplined by God for the express purpose to 'Partake of his Holiness, and so that we may not be "Condemned with the world" (those who are unsaved and who will face God's final wrath). I greatly fear our God Gary, I guess through this medium, it's just hard to convey how we really feel. I am not an advocate for sin, or a believer sinning, and I do know that his chastening, even sometimes to death, can be a very horrible thing, but it is always for the good of the believer, for all things are for our good and on our behalf in Christ Jesus. You will never read me calling God a big softy. He is my Father.

Awesome post brother! Thanks for taking time to write.

[saved34]

You and some others have repeatedly said we are not under the law but under grace. Sin is the transgression of the law, so how can you therefore claim you are not saying we are free to do things that were called sinful under the law?

Butero, when we say we are no longer under the Law, we are not saying we are Lawless to God. That is taking what we are saying at a purely mechanical interpretation. Our lifestyle is one of the indwelling Holy Spirit, we have a new nature(the equivalent of God placing his laws in us instead of on stone or ordinances). Our New nature compels us to do right, the love of Christ constrains us to do right. Real grace gives us the power to live holy lives before our God. The Law could not do this, nor was it designed to do this.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

When a man or a woman experiences Grace in truth, the thankfulness that it produces in the heart will lead to good works and obedience. Our lifestyle is so much bigger than just trying to keep the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses cannot bring one single accusation against the Justified sinner. The God of all glory has declared him or her just as righteous as the Lord Jesus Christ, and now the Holy Spirit works in the life of that man or woman to bring them up to the high position that God has already bestowed on them freely through the Grace found in Christ Jesus.

Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Eph 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

[saved34]

If I am taking you right, you are saying that since the born again believer has righteousness imputed to him or her, no matter what they do, they are sinless in the sight of God, but they won't continue in sin.

Answering the first part of this question, that is correct brother, that is what Justification is. Because of what our Lord has done, God can now declare the believing sinner righteous. There is no such thing as a reversal of Justification. It is the gracious act of God whereby he will not lay sin to the account of the one who has faith in Christ as his or her sacrifice.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

Rom 4:8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT

Now as far as the second part of this question, "They wont continue to sin". Is not what I am saying Scripture does not teach that. They will not continue in sin is more accurate statement. The two statements are worlds apart. To say you have no sin, or that you don't sin is only to deceive yourself.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

I would then have to come back and ask, what if they do sin? Does that mean they were never saved?

Why would that mean they were never saved? Let me get this straight, you believe each and every time a man or woman sins, he or she must get re-saved, or that they were never saved? God has made provisions for the saint who commits sin.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Confession of our sins as we walk in the revealing light of God is our practical sanctification. Christ our advocate insures that positionaly we are perfect, in our actually walk and fellowship, confession, chastisement, tribulation, etc molds the believer into the man or woman that God has already by grace, made them positionaly.

why find fault with the couple in adutlery and incest in the Corinthian Church? If they were Christians, and the transgressions were not charged to them, and we know that where there is no law, there can be no transgression, why did Paul put them out of the church and turn them over to Satan?

God still hates sin just as much as he ever did. Grace is not a license for the believer to just sin it up, and live a filthy life. Contrary, it is the main reason a man or woman lives right.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Tit 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

In the case of the great sin at Corinth, Paul said to put them out for the express purpose of chastisement. Which is the divine tool of God to get us in line if we ourselves will not confess our sins.

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Sorry for the long drawn out post., but what I'm presenting here is the doctrine of standing and state. As far as condemnation, your sins will never be brought against you, but in actual walk or state, sin is not to reign in your mortal body. We as believers will give account of ourselves before Christ as to what we have done both good and bad. Not for salvation, but for stewardship and rewards. lol I hope I'm not confusing you on my position. I pray God that no one thinks that I believe we can just sin all we want, and everything will be just fine and peachy with God.

[nebula]

But getting back to the actual OP, how would you consider what I mentioned in Butero?

(#91)

Edited March 4, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<< to fix reference to post in question by Nebula. >>

[missmuffet]

I do not think that you can be too obedient when it comes to Christ.I can see the misconception of women not wanting to wear pants or not cutting their hair because they think the Bible tells them not to.Look at where the fashion world has gone.Alot of women who wear dresses or skirts now have most of their body showing.The Amish are big on legalism.

http://www.gotquesti...n-legalism.html

[Sevenseas]

The Amish? LOL! sorry...that really gave me a chuckle

[saved34]

I do not think that you can be too obedient when it comes to Christ.I can see the misconception of women not wanting to wear pants or not cutting their hair because they think the Bible tells them not to.Look at where the fashion world has gone.Alot of women who wear dresses or skirts now have most of their body showing.The Amish are big on legalism.

http://www.gotquesti...n-legalism.html

Actually you can. It's not real obedience or worship, but asceticism. The heart is the root of the matter. A woman can be covered from head to toe with a thing covering her face, and a man can still see her shape and be tempted by her. Surely we should be discreet in what ever we do, but it's not the things on the outside that defiles us, it's our own wicked hearts.

Col 2:20 You died with Christ and were made free from the powers that influence this world. So why do you act as if you still belong to the world? I mean, why do you follow rules like these:

Col 2:21 "Don't eat this," "Don't taste that," "Don't touch that"?

Col 2:22 These rules are talking about earthly things that are gone after they are used. They are only human commands and teachings.

Col 2:23 These rules may seem to be wise as part of a made-up religion in which people pretend to be humble and punish their bodies. But they don't help people stop doing the evil that the sinful self wants to do

Don't wear pants, don't go to the movies, don't listen to this, or don't eat that. That is not the Christian life. Pants does not defile a woman, neither does a mustache defile a man.

[GoldenEagle]

This topic has been edited... Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God!

Let's stick to the OP. If you're interested in discussing women wearing pants, men having mustaches, a different definition of legalism etc. please comment on a different thread below. Again let's stay on subject. Posts that are not on topic will be either edited out or split to a different thread...

I. Legalism: Defined -

V. Legalism: Split... Understanding Legalism and Examples -

God bless,

GE

This is the OP so let's discuss it:

I was brainstorming with my wife last night about legalistic views/ideas and legalism. This was after someone I know pointed out that one might be legalistic and not even know it. Here's what we came up with.

Which of these hit home the most? Your thoughts? Anything to add to the list?

God bless,

GE

You May Have Legalism (And Not Even Know It) In Your Life…

1. If you believe God’s love for you depends on your efforts or what you do.

2. If you believe God’s love for you depends on how much you have done for Him lately and the love you have shown him recently.

3. If you fall short because in your mind you need to be a better person, you haven’t prayed enough, or you don’t have enough faith.

4. If you believe God is predisposed to be angry with you because you are a sinner and let’s face it He knows you can do better.

5. If you know God’s law but don’t have a personal relationship with Him.

6. If you focus more on your fellow Christians church attendance, tithing, version of the Bible, outward appearance rather than getting to know others and accepting them where they’re at in their walk with the Lord.

{Nebula's take on this one is good: 6. If you focus more on what is wrong with your fellow Christians than what is good, righteous, holy, and beneficial about the person.}

7. If you have grown accustomed to living by the expectations of others, especially those in positions of authority or those in your local church, as this is essential to your life.

8. If your sense of worth is based on the opinions of a Christian leader, your reputation, your church membership, or a group’s opinion of you rather than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

9. If you are more concerned with your reputation than with heart change in your life conforming to Christ.

10. If you tell your children not to do something at church or around other Christian families that you allow in your home or elsewhere.

11. If you believe that what people wear, skirt length, swimsuit type, tattoos, piercings, hairstyle, length of hair, etc. is a clear indication of a person’s spiritual maturity and character.

12. You look at people’s lives and instinctively judge them rather than see them through God’s eyes – a work in progress for those who Believe and potential children of God for those who do not.

13. You believe you’re standards somehow make you superior to others.

14. When you miss a service or program at your church, even with a legitimate reason, you feel guilty.

15. You’re so loyal to man-made tradition you don’t think any significant change could possibly be from God.

16. You believe you’re church/denomination is the only group really focused on teaching God’s Word.

17. You believe that those who have been divorced are less valuable in the eyes of God and you feel superior to them.

18. You believe that how your kids turn out is solely your responsibility and the measurement of your success or lack there-of as a Christian parent.

19. You believe that even associating much less discussing ideas with those different than you is sinful compromise.

20. If you believe that the expression of spiritual gifts (provided by the Holy Spirit) is evidence of one’s personal walk with God.

Edit: For clarification the working definition for legalism on this thread is taken from here: I. Legalism: Defined -

noun

1. strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, especially to the letter rather than the spirit.

2. Theology .

a. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.

b. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

We've attempted to discuss points 1, 2, 3, and 6. Which one should we discuss next?