No Scripture Identifies the Time for the Rapture

[iamlamad]

 

 

- The Great Multitude who don't die

but stand before God and The Lamb

in White Robes with Palms In Hand

is The Marrigae Of The Lamb. - Rev.7:9

Why do you rearrange the book? The great crowd is the raptured  church, JUST raptured in chapter 7, while the marriage will be 7 plus years into the future, in chapter 19. To be sure, they will BE AT the wedding.

 

- Rev. 19 is when "The (Marriage) Of The Lamb Has Come".

It Doesn't Say The Wedding Of The Lamb Has Come.

"And The Wife Has Made Herself Ready" (?)

What has the wife made herself ready for?

"The Marriage Supper Of The Lamb" - Rev.19:7

"Blessed Are Those Who Are Called To The Marriage Supper Of The Lamb. - Rev.19:9

 

Does a wedding make a marriage? It does in my mind. But you are right, I should use the biblical term. 

Yes, of course she has made herself ready for the marriage.

 

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

My biggest question about this is HOW posttribbers plan on attending this marriage. It is in HEAVEN.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

Omegaman

 

I go by the case that our death is immanent.  We have no idea when we will die.  In the same vein, we do not know when the Rapture will occur.  It is still my opinion the the Bride is a gift from the Father to the Son.  This is why only God the Father knows when this marriage will take place.  When looking at the verse portion of 1 Thes 4:16 "the trumpet call of God.  It is God who does the calling, it is Jesus who does the saving, and it the HS who does the sealing and comforting and nudging, plus some other functions.

 

Here is a trick/awkward question.  When did Scripture begin supporting gay marriage.   NEVER, it has always been against that subject.

 

The real question.  When did Scripture begin supporting/teaching vengeance to those who do us harm.  (for this is where I do not cross the line).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Vengeance will surely come! Did not God say "vengeance is mine, says the Lord?" (Romans 12:19)

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

The real question.  When did Scripture begin supporting/teaching vengeance to those who do us harm.  (for this is where I do not cross the line).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Sorry Marv, you might have a great point, but if you did, I totally missed it. Can you explain  what you mean by the above?

 

 

Omegaman

 

The point I am getting at is two different mind sets. 

 

The first being, NT Believers have been taught to ask for forgiveness and not seek revenge.  Rom 12:14 - Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse.  v.19 - Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for Gods wrath, for it is written, It is mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord. v.20 - If your enemy is hungry, feed him, if he is thirsty, give him something to drink....

 

The second being, these tribulation saints who were beheaded and their souls which under the altar in heaven are asking a question 180 degrees from what NT Believers have been taught.  Rev 6:10 and 11b - They called out in a loud voice, How long Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood.  Then they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.  In essence, these saints were beheaded and did not worship the beast or receive his mark, according to Rev 20:4.

 

This is a very select group of saints were are looking at, only those who are beheaded and did not worship the beast or receive his mark. (Only during the last 7 years)  This does not include any other NT saints who have been killed or martyred by other means.  So these killed which are of the 5th Seal cannot be the Bride of Christ.

 

One group is to bless those who persecute us; that being NT believers.  The other group can ask for revenge to those who killed them, the tribulation saints.  What has changed?  When did this revenge doctrine enter the Church?  I do not see it anywhere in Scripture.  Do we bless or ask for revenge?

 

I don't know about you, but for me everything was nailed to the cross.  Christ bore it all.  So I cannot ask for revenge.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Marv, you cannot add to scripture!    In essence, these saints were beheaded and did not worship the beast or receive his mark, according to Rev 20:4.

 

You have put two scriptures together that do not belong together, and so came up with a sentence that is simply not true.

 

^{Rev 6:9} And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

Note carefully, this does NOT SAY how these were killed! In fact, they were killed many different ways. Stephen was stoned. John was beheaded. These are church age martyrs. Please note carefully that John has not yet even started the week, much less arrived at the last half of the week where the Beast will be beheading. That begins in Chapter 13 or later. this is in chapter 5. It is not out of order! These are church age saints. They went to heaven when they died. (Absent from the body, present with the Lord.) I think we can say without hesitation that once we are in heaven, we will KNOW MUCH MORE than we know here.  They KNOW that God will judge the earth. It is written clearly:

 

Luke 18:7

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

 

Revelation 18:20

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

 

Stop and think about this: if these were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they had only 7 years or less and it would all be over. So in that case, there question does not make much sense. But consider Stephen, when he was stoned. He and others martyred then had no idea how long the church age would be, so they were asking.

 

Notice carefully the answer given to them:  "they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

 

What is John (and the Holy Spirit) really saying to us here? These were killed in many different ways. It cannot be speaking of the manner of death. It is speaking of the TIME they were killed, as church age martyrs: killed as they were, as church age martyrs. So what would make the very last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age. When in Revelation does the church age end? Of course with the very next seal, seal #6 that shows the start of the Day of Wrath. Again, we see that John's chronology is PERFECT, as God is perfect.

 

The point is, GOD will avenge. You can I both know this, so we don't take vengeance upon ourselves. We leave that totally up to God. 

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

Hi Montana

 

 

 

You are confusing the Second Coming, which everyone will know that day. Which is after the tribulation of those days. With the Rapture in which no one but the Father knows.

 

Per Scripture I have alreade posted in other threads, as you know,  I believe the (2nd) coming of Jesus and the catching away of His people left on earth at that time called "the rapture" are a simultaneous even, which is after the tribulation of those days, so there is no confusion, at least not  on my part.

 

nikki1

 

So God the Father is not the only one who knows the timing of the Rapture then.  Now the angels in heaven know, and the Son also knows.  Who is going to know next.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Yes

 

Sorry, BoPeep, but no one knows when EITHER coming will be. The next coming FOR His saints will come "as a thief in the night." NO ONE knows when a thief comes, or they would be ready for him or her. It is the same with His coming WITH His saints. NO ONE will know when that coming will be. It will NOT be at the end of the 70th week. There will be some time after that for the marriage and supper in heaven, and THEN He will come. So again there will be an unknown period of time from the 7th vial that ends the week to His coming on the white horse.

 

Lamad

[Guest]

This thread is interesting. People cut snippets from scripture, often not including the context, and just seem to insert it into the future where is suits their pet doctrines. This seems to be the case very often, in this thread and others, with two ideas from scripture, especially:

 

No one knows the day nor the hour,

and

coming like a thief

What is interesting about the no one knows the day or the hour verse, is that many people try to apply it to indicate that a pre-trib rapture might be imminent. I find that to be rather gutsy, to apply a verse that is in the context of Jesus second coming after the tribulation to a pre-trb rapture that even pre-tribbers agree, is never mentioned in the passage.

 

It is understandable, since books and pastors and other sources have been doing that a lot in the last half century, why would people think any differently (unless they carefully read their bibles). What is really remarkable though, is how many people use that verse, even after being shown that their understanding is an error.

 

I understand that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is important to some, even more important than what the bible teaches, but I would think that they would use other verses, and not depend on mis-representing what scripture says. There is no possible way that verse is intended to imply a pre-trib rapture.

Not that it has not been said before, not that is is not already known by some here who abuse scripture, but for the sake of those who might be mislead, let's get the facts on the table once again.

 

From Matt 24:

 

 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
NASB

What is it that no one knows the day ot the hour of? Clearly, the verse is making a referance to some time that Jesus was just referring to.

 

What Jesus had just said was:

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,  30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. 
NASB

What do we see there? We see Jesus coming to gather His elect, and it says that it will be immediately after the tribulation. This is not interpretation, this is just reading what it plainly says. There is no rapture in view at all, UNLESS it is a post-trib rapture.

 

So, to understand the text in the simplest way, without adding information that is not in the passage, we would understand that Jesus is coming to gather His elect, after the tribulation.

 

But then comes the objections: that the gathering of the elect here, cannot be the rapture, because no one knows the day or the hour, and if it is after the tribulation, they will know once the tribulation has begun, that His coming is imminent.

 

This of course is true, after the trib, His coming is imminent, however it is not imminent yet!

 

Is this good exegesis, to assume that this is not the rapture because people will know it is about to happen? No, it is horribly sloppy exegesis.

 

Jesus said those words nearly 2000 years ago when the tribulation was going to be about 2000 years in the future or maybe a lot more. So, just as Jesus said, no one knew (in the present tense 2000 years ago).

He did not say that no one would ever know, did not say that those in the tribulation would not know, only that no one knew as of the time Jesus spoke those words. He never applied the 'no one knows' concept to future generations, so it is improper for us to do so now.

 

Now, just in case there was a chance that someone would come along and change Jesus words as if to say:

"no one will ever know the day or the hour", Jesus made sure that He could not be misunderstood, except by those who want to be deceived, or are willing to be deceived, or just arent paying close attention. This is ironic, since much of Matt 24, is about warnings not to be deceived, and the signs that will take place, so that people will know when the time is near, yet people manage to turn it around to say that no one will know, how sad.

 

Even without thinking the passage through. you know that He did not mean no one would ever know, unless we assume that even those who found themselves experiencing it, wouldn't know either.

 

So, how did Jesus assure against misunderstanding? He told us it would be like in the days of Noah. And then he pointed us to some specifics:

 

Matt 24:38-40
38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
NASB
 
In the days  of Noah, there were two groups of people, the group that would be saved on the ark, and those who would be lost in the judgement of flood.

 

One group, was living life as normal, like nothing was going to happen, they were marrying and giving in marriage. Why would Jesus provide the details about this group marrying? Of what use is that detail? It is actually a key to understanding who the people in Noah's time are, and who they are not. There were 8 people saved on the ark, Noah and his wife, and Noah's three sons and their three wives. So, on the ark, were 8 people, all married. Therefore, we know that those who were marrying, was not Noah's family. and of those who are not Noah's family, it says:

"and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away"

Of couse, we know that Noah understood, he and his family had been building the ark, because they knew the flood was coming. They were not surprised. Only the unbeleivers were surprised at being caught in the judgement of God,  while Noah and family, were safe from the wrath of God, even though they were not removed from the earth.

 

Luke gives us other details:

 

Luke 17:25-37

 26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it shall be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

 

(This shows again, that we are not looking at a pre-trib rapture, but at our Lord's revelation after the tribulation.) Notice that in Luke's version, it says of those who were being given in marriage, that "the flood came and destroyed them all."       Continuing:

 

31 "On that day, let not the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house go down to take them away; and likewise let not the one who is in the field turn back. 32 "Remember Lot's wife. 33 "Whoever seeks to keep his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life shall preserve it. 34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken, and the other will be left. 36["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]  37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered." 
NASB

 

This is the same conversation, and the same reference to Noah's time is made. If you read it carefully, and keep in mind that the ones taken, are the ones taken to destruction, not those on the ark, you will understand what is being said. Here we see verses that people sometimes use (mistakenly) and apply them to the rapture (whether pre-trib or post-trib or whatever. about "one taken the other left".

 

People will say: "see! Two men will be in a field, one taken in the rapture, the other left behind"!

Look again carefull at the context, as in the days of Noah, some are taken (to destruction) some are left (in God's protection).

 

Now, if you are paying attention, Jesus just told us, that as in the days of Noah, some will be saved from destruction at His coming, while others will be taken. Those taken are not those in a rapture, they are taken to their deaths. Clearly Jesus knew people would still misunderstand this, that is why He gave these clues. However, He must think we are really dense (we are) because He gave us yet another clue to make it even more clear,

Again from Luke:

 

Luke 17:
34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken, and the other will be left. 36["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."] 

37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?"

 

What are the desciples asking when they ask "where"?

two possibilities where are they left? or where are they taken to. We already know the are in beds, on roofs, in fields, no one needs to ask where they are left, the question is, where are the taken to.  Jesus tells them:

 "Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered." 
NASB

 

To answer their question "where?"  He said to them, "Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered." 

They are taken to their deaths, where their bodies will be feasted upon by vultures. Vultures and bodies are not a description of a rapture.

Now, if you still have the understanding that in the context of Matt 24, where the day and hour passage is,

where the context is Jesus second coming after the tribulation,

 

and that when Jesus said that no one 2000 years ago knew when His second coming after tribulation

 

would be actually means that:

 

'no one would ever know when a pre-trib rapture will be'

 

( a rapture that is never mentioned once in the whole passage,) then I think you are beyond hope  in terms of good exegesis.

 

However, please understand that this does not mean that your belief in a pre-trib rapture is wrong, it only means that that is not what is being taught in the Matt 24 context. I should also point out though, that even if this were teaching an at any moment coming, that any moment can also include a post-trib coming as a possibility. There is no proof, nor even evidence here, of a pre-trib coming, and now that you have seen that this context does not support a pre-trib rapture, if anything it is contra-indicated, you should cease using this passage that way, it is an abuse.

 

The verses about 'coming like a thief', are also abused and stripped of their contexts, and are never applied to a pre-trib scenario. Let's get them all here for later referance:

 

1 Thess 5:1-7

5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
NASB

 

2 Peter 3:9-13

 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
NASB

 

Rev 3:2-4
2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3'Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you.
NASB

 

Rev 16:12-16

12 And the sixth angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. 15("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.") 16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
NASB

 

Did you notice, that there are 4 verses about Jesus coming like a thief? Did you notice that none of them are in the context of a pre-trib rapture? Did you notice that non of them is applied to a true follower of Jesus? In fact, did you notice the watchful, obedient Christians were specifically excluded? Did you notice these verses are all about coming in judgement?

 

I urge you brothers and sisters, when you hear people promoting the pre-trib rapture, and using these and other phrases, that you go immediately to your bibles, to see what the scripture actually says, instead of gathering teachers to yourselves, that tell you what your itching ears want to here. We were warned against this very thing:

 

1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

Is the pre-trib rapture doctrine ear tickling? Sure it is. Therefore, be careful, perhaps it is one such myth that people in the latter times will come to embrace instead of sound doctrine. Whether it is or isn't, there is no reason to contrive proof texts and evidences from scripture, where the verses themselves do not indicate it. If pre-tribism is true, and the Lord wants us to understand that, then there is no need to misuse scripture to do it, it will be there in the text, without twisting, without taking it out of contexts, and without importing ideas and assumptions to the text.

[ENOCH2010]

Excellent post O Man

[Guest]

Thank you Enoch, very kind of you.

 

I only hope that people can actually hear what I am trying to get across, that there is never any call to misuse scripture. We are called to rightly divide the word of truth. We should never approach scripture with a notion in our heads, or any kind of doctrinal filter with which we are determined to understand a passage, instead, we need to let the scripture speak for itself, let it speak to us. Failing to do this, leads us into error, and we in turn, lead others into error.

 

From past experiences here in the forums though, I am not all that hopeful, and expect to see some of the same people posing the same invalid  'proof texts' to try to make thier cases, and it saddens me,

 

It might be that the way I think these events will all work out, might be way off base, and if I am taking things out of context, I sure hope someone will be thoughtful enough to take me to task and point out my errors, but not with theories, but with scripture.

 

My own views on the topic, have been evolving for over thirty years, and I expect they will do so more, It is okay, to not have it all figured out, but I do not think it is ok, to not try to improve our understanding, and be willing to change. As a former pre-trib rapturist, I think I have demonstrated my willingness to be shaped by scripture, maybe someday I will see something, that I do not see presently and switch back.

[Montana Marv]

Omegaman

 

Very compelling.

 

The Post trib believers usually rely on Matt 24:31 - And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four wins, from on end of the heavens to the other.   Who are these already in the far reaches of heaven.  Scripture does not say when they got there does it.  But who are his elect on earth (the four winds).  His elect are the 144,000, the remnant of Israel.  To go beyond that is to add to Scripture.  Who else comes out of the great tribulation. 

 

Rev 7:9 - After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb, they were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 

 

This is also a Scripture used by Post trib believers.  For this scene in here on earth, Scripture does not identify these as the Bride.

 

We need to have some OT support for our positions.  Isa. 18:7 - At that time gifts will be brought to the Lord Almighty from a people tall and smooth skinned, from a people feared far and wide, an aggressive nation of strange speech, whose land is divided by rivers, the gifts wo;; be brought to Mount Zion, the place of the Name of the Lord Almighty.

 

and  Isa 19:16-25 - In that day the Egyptians will be like women.  They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the Lord Almighty raises against them.  In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and will swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty.  In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt and a monument to the Lord at its border.  So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and it that day they will acknowledge the Lord.  They will worship with sacrifice and grain offering, they will make vows to the Lord and keep them  In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria.  The Egyptians and the Assyrians will worship together.  In that day Israel will be the third, along with with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on then saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.

 

These are just some of those people and languages who make it out of the great tribulation, gathered from the four winds.  Read Isa 18 and 19 in its entirety.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

a

[kwikphilly]

Hello everyone,Is the question here meant as pre or post trib  or literally "Date,day,hour"?I do believe exactly what is written that as far as the exact day and hour"no one knows,not even the angels ,of heaven,but My Father only".This was never important to me(personally) to dive deeply into because the whole point Our Lord Jesus wants to make VERY clear to us is"Therefore BE READY,for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect."I do agree with many of you in believing that when the Son returned to heaven He immediatley knew All things (including the day and hour)as God the Son(Trinity).......and if I'm wrong then I willl find out when I no longer see dimly(lol)...And I used to think the rapture would spare us from tribulation but as I have realized,Jesus warns His church (the elect)that DURING the great tribulation, those days will be shortened for our sakes(the elect)  and  to not to be deceived by the false prophets signs and wonders(again speaking to the elect)and finally He says,"Therefore if they say to YOU(US)Look,He's in the desert ect......Warning His Church not to believe it.   "THANK YOU JESUS"    Now,here comes the rapture(matt24:-31) Immediatley AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,& the moon will not give its light:the stars will fall from heaven,& the powers of heaven will be shaken.Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,& then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,& they will see theSon of Man coming on the clouds of heavenwith power & great glory.And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,& they will GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other,          Then ,of course in verse 36-40,He explains again in more detail and how quickly it will happen (like the flood)....Wow,just think,even if we All got All  the details wrong  ",THANK YOU JESUS" for saving us!        God Bless all,Kwik

[OneLight]

I am a bit confused here.  Are we discussing the timing of the rapture or His Second Coming?