No Scripture Identifies the Time for the Rapture

[kwikphilly]

Not sure OneLight,So I covered both(lol).........but one thing is for sure,isn't His Word the most beautiful thing you ever read?!!!!!!Halleluliah                              Kwik

[OneLight]

Yes, it surely is a life saver!

[Guest]

I am a bit confused here.  Are we discussing the timing of the rapture or His Second Coming?

Well, the OP is about the time of the Rapture. To some believers, the rapture seems to be at the second coming, so it is natural to discuss both. If there is chronological coincidence in those events, then knowing things about the timing or the sequence of event to the second coming, will reveal the approximate timing or sequence to the rapture.

[Guest]

Omegaman

 

Very compelling.

 

The Post trib believers usually rely on Matt 24:31 - And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four wins, from on end of the heavens to the other.   Who are these already in the far reaches of heaven.  Scripture does not say when they got there does it.  But who are his elect on earth (the four winds).  His elect are the 144,000, the remnant of Israel.  To go beyond that is to add to Scripture.  Who else comes out of the great tribulation. 

 

As a post-trib (so far) believer myself, I do not depend on that verse at all, but I do think post-tribism is compatible with that verse. A lot obiously depends on who the elect are. If we could say with certainly, that they are the church, then that makes a better case for post-tribism. Simlarly, if we can say the elect here are Jews (particularly Jews in the Holy land), then the verse looks more pre-tribby. As I see it, the term elect (or chosen, is use of both groups in the bible, and more often in the New Testament, of those chosen in Christ, not surprisingly. I do not beleive that it is sound, to assume either group, based on counting how many times it is used each way. If it were used exclusivley one way, that would be entirely different.

 

Some will say, that the passage contains Jewish elements, Jerusalem surrounded, Sabbath observance etc, and therefore the context proves the elect are Jews. Others will point out, that the instructions are given to the apostles, and so we should see this in a Christian context. I find neither of those compelling enough for me to take a position on that basis.Since in other passages, I think we know that Jews will be on earth during the tribulation, it seems like either this gathering of the elect could include Jews, but what excludes the church here really. We can call it the time of Jacob's trouble, and clearly this passage is drawing attention to Jerusalem, yet we know from other passages that the tribulation is not a local event. I think, the the geographical focus here, is to point out where we need to be looking for signs of the nearness of His coming.

 

You stated:

But who are his elect on earth (the four winds).  His elect are the 144,000, the remnant of Israel.  To go beyond that is to add to Scripture.

 

Off the top of my head, I would agree the to be dogmatic about who the elect are here, is to go beyond scripture, but I would think the sate dogmatically that the 144,000 are, is to do the same thing, Would you care to explain, how we know that the 144,000 should be viewed as the elect here?

 

Rev 7:9 - After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb, they were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

 

This is also a Scripture used by Post trib believers.  For this scene in here on earth, Scripture does not identify these as the Bride.

 

We need to have some OT support for our positions. 

 

Do we? 

why is that? If for example Paul or Jesus or other New Testament authority where to have said that Jesus would only return one more time, and that visibly after the great tribulation, and gather His people together in the sky, would we need O.T. support? Or, in that instance, would we be more forced to say, that any understanding of an Old Testament verse or passage that contradicts such a New Testament revelation, has to be misunderstood? I have to disagree that we need O.T. support. If we have it, great, if not, no big deal. In fact, I would say if we have clear revelation on any doctrine, then one verse is sufficient, it needs no support from the rest of the bible. The possible exception might be, if the verse is in question, that it even existed in the original autographs, or that that is has been accurately preserved.

 

Isa. 18:7 - At that time gifts will be brought to the Lord Almighty from a people tall and smooth skinned, from a people feared far and wide, an aggressive nation of strange speech, whose land is divided by rivers, the gifts wo;; be brought to Mount Zion, the place of the Name of the Lord Almighty.

 

and  Isa 19:16-25 - In that day the Egyptians will be like women.  They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the Lord Almighty raises against them.  In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and will swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty.  In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt and a monument to the Lord at its border.  So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and it that day they will acknowledge the Lord.  They will worship with sacrifice and grain offering, they will make vows to the Lord and keep them  In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria.  The Egyptians and the Assyrians will worship together.  In that day Israel will be the third, along with with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on then saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.

 

These are just some of those people and languages who make it out of the great tribulation, gathered from the four winds.  Read Isa 18 and 19 in its entirety.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Thanks for your response and your contributions to this and other threads Marv.

[kwikphilly]

I'd like to share an interesting "read" on the ELECT.......http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/misunderstandings.html...............Entitled"The Misunderstandings of the Doctrine of Election   by Wayne Gruden.........God Bless You all and Have a joyful Sunday!,,,Kwik

[George]

Omegaman

 

The point I am getting at is two different mind sets. 

 

The first being, NT Believers have been taught to ask for forgiveness and not seek revenge.  Rom 12:14 - Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse.  v.19 - Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for Gods wrath, for it is written, It is mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord. v.20 - If your enemy is hungry, feed him, if he is thirsty, give him something to drink....

 

The second being, these tribulation saints who were beheaded and their souls which under the altar in heaven are asking a question 180 degrees from what NT Believers have been taught.  Rev 6:10 and 11b - They called out in a loud voice, How long Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood.  Then they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.  In essence, these saints were beheaded and did not worship the beast or receive his mark, according to Rev 20:4.

 

This is a very select group of saints were are looking at, only those who are beheaded and did not worship the beast or receive his mark. (Only during the last 7 years)  This does not include any other NT saints who have been killed or martyred by other means.  So these killed which are of the 5th Seal cannot be the Bride of Christ.

 

One group is to bless those who persecute us; that being NT believers.  The other group can ask for revenge to those who killed them, the tribulation saints.  What has changed?  When did this revenge doctrine enter the Church?  I do not see it anywhere in Scripture.  Do we bless or ask for revenge?

 

I don't know about you, but for me everything was nailed to the cross.  Christ bore it all.  So I cannot ask for revenge.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Shalom Montana,

 

It's not they they sought revenge themselves, they simply asked the Lord to repay.  And we see this in the parable of the unjust judge.

 

Luk 18:3  And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

 

Luk 18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

God bless,

 

George

[George]

Does a wedding make a marriage? It does in my mind. But you are right, I should use the biblical term. 

Yes, of course she has made herself ready for the marriage.

 

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

My biggest question about this is HOW posttribbers plan on attending this marriage. It is in HEAVEN.

 

Lamad

 

Which verse specifically says the "Marriage" supper is in heaven?  Out of curiousity. 

 

God bless,

 

George

[Montana Marv]

Lord avenge the person (scum) who just killed my son (daughter, wife, husband, mother or father).  Avenge their blood.  Be careful, for this same person (scum) may eventually become a believer in Christ.

 

What say you about having someone be given a full cup of vengeance.  Where is grace.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[nikki1]

Lord avenge the person (scum) who just killed my son (daughter, wife, husband, mother or father).  Avenge their blood.  Be careful, for this same person (scum) may eventually become a believer in Christ.

 

What say you about having someone be given a full cup of vengeance.  Where is grace.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

God's Grace still stands and if the person becomes a believer in Christ and repents of his crime, God is faithful to forgive him/her.  But the murderer will still have to pay for his crime according to Romans Chapter 13 and answer to the civil governing authorities in the jurisdiction,  and in some states such as Texas, the death penalty  still stands.

[iamlamad]

 

Does a wedding make a marriage? It does in my mind. But you are right, I should use the biblical term. 

Yes, of course she has made herself ready for the marriage.

 

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

My biggest question about this is HOW posttribbers plan on attending this marriage. It is in HEAVEN.

 

Lamad

 

Which verse specifically says the "Marriage" supper is in heaven?  Out of curiousity. 

 

God bless,

 

George

 

George, just read it in context! JEsus leaves the wedding supper to get on the white horse and come to earth.

 

The bible tells us to extablish things with two or three witnesses. There are MANY personal testimonies of people who have gone to heaven and returned, that have seen the preparations for the supper. Millions of tables that stretch out farther than the eye can see. Each table has name tags at the seats. All preparations are completed. They are only waiting on the bride to arrive. If this was just one testimony, one perhaps could wonder, but MANY have seen the same thing. What they saw agrees completely with Rev. 19. The scene is IN HEAVEN. John has not yet returned to earth.

 

⁴ And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

⁵ And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

 

There can be no doubt this is IN HEAVEN. STILL IN HEAVEN:

 

¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;....

 

 

Lamad

 

 

 

Lamad