Questions about Acts 3?

[Persuaded]

I'm a pretribber, but I'm happy to accept folks that think differently. I don't think these verses are part of the gray area that divides us.

The times don't start with His return, but surround it. Example, "I was born in the Vietnam era", can mean several years before GI's arrived, to several years after. "Times" (or period) here reads the same way in the context of the passage. It identifies the bigger milestones that His final prophetic fulfillment relate to. I don't know how to make that clearer...

Same general argument with "sit at my right hand"- it doesn't mean He's cuffed to the chair! It means He is co-ruling, and has a place of honor with the Father. If He's in the chair, how is He building my mansion??? :-)

It is heaven that must do the receiving, because Christ can't fulfill the second coming prophesies until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in, etc.

I've known deeply committed Christian scholars on both sides of the pretrib and post-toastie debate, and I'm convinced that scripture has been left deliberately vague so that we'll continue to debate it, and have reason to eagerly await His arrival.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omegaman,

 

What a great topic. And I am so glad it has come on again as I never noticed it before. Now I was taught this truth concerning the `restitution` of all things,` many, many years ago. I still have some of the notes. So here is what I have been taught.

 

Jesus Christ.....`whom the heavens must receive until the time of restitution of all things.`  (Acts 3: 21)

 

This far-reaching expression comprehends the complete restoration from all disorder. The Greek word `Apokatastasis` conveys the essential idea of a reverting to a previous state from one of confusion.

 

God created the heaven & Earth in perfection. (Gen. 1: 1) His Divine purpose for each area will survive time & be perfected in eternity, it will not be changed, only those who have exercised authority in each of the delegated realms.

 

 

1. THE ETERNAL THRONE OF GOD

 

Established in the Heaven of Heavens (ie. Highest Heaven Ps. 68: 33) it is far above created heavens, unchangeable & immutable. In His infinite wisdom He recognises & has instituted delegated orders of Government, revealed to & delineated by the Apostle Paul. (Col. 1: 15 - 16)

 

 

2. THRONES AND DOMINIONS

 

Situated in the upper heavenlies, this area is in the immediate Presence of God, nearest to the Eternal Throne. Designated by Paul as the third heaven (2 Cor. 12: 2) it will constitute the administrative centre of the universe in the ages to come.

 

 

3. PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS

 

Lesser in authority, this sphere is closer in proximity to, & more involved in the governing & influencing of the earth. It is situated in the atmospheric & celestial heavens. (Eph. 6: 12  c/f Eph. 2: 2)

 

 

 

Lucifer was the original occupant of the realm of `thrones,` & descriptions provided by Isaiah (14: 12 ff) & Ezekiel (28: 11 ff) reveal the original power & beauty of this, the greatest angel created by God. He was King of a whole order comprising one-third of the angelic host, & his particular ministry was to lead the worship of God in heaven.

 

 

SUBSEQUENT CORRUPTION

 

Lucifer aspired to ascend into the highest heaven to be as God, corruption entered the thronal realm, & Lucifer was cast out. He then usurped the area of Principalities & Powers, operates & rules there as Prince of the Power of the Air, (Eph. 2: 2) and as such is the subject of unrelenting conflict with the believer (Eph. 6: 12).

 

The realm of the Throne has been vacated & cleansed, & must remain unoccupied until that time-slot unequivocally established by Peter (Acts 3: 21)

 

The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be that impelling compulsion which will implement the restitution of the initial area of God`s Purpose. The Body of Christ, translated, glorified & perfected will assume its predestined emplacement on the Throne to reign with Christ eternally.

 

The restitution of the `Thronal realm,` ie. Thrones & Dominions will only then become an accomplished fact.

 

 

 

 

This subject reaches far & wide, but this initial overview will do for a start.

[Guest]

I'm a pretribber, but I'm happy to accept folks that think differently. I don't think these verses are part of the gray area that divides us.

The times don't start with His return, but surround it. Example, "I was born in the Vietnam era", can mean several years before GI's arrived, to several years after. "Times" (or period) here reads the same way in the context of the passage. It identifies the bigger milestones that His final prophetic fulfillment relate to. I don't know how to make that clearer...

Same general argument with "sit at my right hand"- it doesn't mean He's cuffed to the chair! It means He is co-ruling, and has a place of honor with the Father. If He's in the chair, how is He building my mansion??? :-)

It is heaven that must do the receiving, because Christ can't fulfill the second coming prophesies until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in, etc.

I've known deeply committed Christian scholars on both sides of the pretrib and post-toastie debate, and I'm convinced that scripture has been left deliberately vague so that we'll continue to debate it, and have reason to eagerly await His arrival.

 

I'm a pretribber, but I'm happy to accept folks that think differently. I don't think these verses are part of the gray area that divides us

 

 

Obviously I am a postie. Like you, I accept those who think differently, but I am not above trying to get them to see what I think God has said on this topic. I do not think that we are divided, I attend a church where as far as I am aware, there is only one other postie. I love the people who attend the church I attend, they are truly my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I think if appropriate, I would lay down my life for them. We differ on a debatable topic, that while I think it is important, it does not affect our mutual relationship with the Lord.

 

 

I've known deeply committed Christian scholars on both sides of the pretrib and post-toastie debate, and I'm convinced that scripture has been left deliberately vague so that we'll continue to debate it, and have reason to eagerly await His arrival.

 

 

Post-toasties, how cute, lol, I refer to your genre as "premies", not meaning any disrespect of course. I do not share your opinion that the scriptures are left deliberately vague, in fact, in terms of details of the sequence concerning pre/mid/post, I don't think they are vague at all. I think they requite a teachable spirit, and a willingness to dig, but I think the scripture is as clear as it needs to be. No doubt that as time moves on, and details fall into place, they will become even clearer to the generation that most needs to know these things, but I do not expect that the debate will go away even then. Of course we should all (believers) look forward to His arrival, and I, along with Premies, do look forward to it. I do not hold, however, to a belief that his coming can happen at any moment. I do not think that this is taught in scripture, but I do see why some think that some beleive that scripture does teach that. Certainly, there is a lot of 'expectancy' language, I just think some take that farther than scripture intends. Bless you for your interest and attitude in this topic. 

[Salty]

 

 

 

That Scripture is not difficult like you're trying to make it. It's talking about Christ's Ascension to The Father's throne in Heaven until it's time for His return to restore all things, as written in the Books of God's prophets.

 

 

No offense Salty, but I don't think you have said anything here. Yes, what you say it is talking about, is what it is talking about, but what does it mean? For example, what is written in the books of God's prophets, that indicates what or when is the time of His return to restore all things?

 

I would point out, that there are passages that speak of Jesus returning after the Great Tribulation that Jesus specifies in Matt 24, referring to prophecy in the book of Daniel, It appears to me, that when Jesus appears (comes, arrives) after the Great Tribulation, that all things have not yet been restored up to that point.

 

Than being the case, since Jesus cannot leave Heaven before the time of restoration, then He cannot leave Heaven to come to catch the church up to Himself in the air until at least after the tribulation.

 

It seems then, that any assumption that Jesus will return to rapture the church before the great tribulation, is a flat contradiction of Act 3:21, UNLESS we can identify an event before the great tribulation which can be legitimatly be referred to as the time of restoration of all things.

 

So, my invitation to expound on Acts 3:21, is an invitation to provide scripture indicating an event before the great tribulation, that Acts 3:21 might be referring to. Until that can be provided, it is fair to assume, that the so called rapture of the church, is after the great tribulation, as the church in general, has believed until the 19th century.

 

It might be that Acts 3 itself, is giving a clue, because it speaks of a time of refreshing, at Jesus presence. Perhaps his presence (which is after the great tribulation) is the time of restoration. Refreshing, making fresh again, is very similar language to "restoration". Now, if we actually beleive that He will not return until this time of restoration, and we KNOW that He returns to be present after the tribulation, then necessarily, we know the time of restoration has come, at the time the tribulation ends, but no one has shown so far from scripture, were Jesus leaves Heaven and restores all things.

 

It is my opinion, based on these observations, that no rational person can assume a pretribulation rapture based upon scripture, until a time of restoration before the great tribulation, can be demonstrated. Of course, beleivers are free to make assumptions that Jesus comes before the great tribulation based upon emotions and great optimism.

 

 

The time of the restoration is ONLY at Christ's return. Nothing more to that. Those pointers there in Acts 3 mean one MUST... read the rest of God's Word to understand the 'when', 'what', 'how', 'why', and 'who', of all that. That would mean posting most of The Bible here, because those things are not just in one Book or chapter of God's Word. But what Paul taught in 1 Cor.15:23-28 gave us a major summarized clue.

[iamlamad]

I think that you are misinterpreting Scripture. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the clouds, his feet never touch the Earth; therefore He remains in Heaven. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

But it IS a "coming." And to come to the air, He must leave heaven.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

In my mind the "restoration of all things" must begin with the destruction of things first. As an example, before a new building can be built (One World Trade Center?) what ever is in the way must be destroyed. Before the One World Trade Center could be started, what was there had to be destroyed.  How was this world before Adam sinned? There was no curse of sin. Lions did not eat lambs. There was NO SIN. When the Millennial Reign of Christ gets started, the curse will be gone, and once again a lamb can cuddle up to a lion and be safe.

 

However, before all this, God must destroy the sinners who are destroying the world. He must destroy the entire world system, which will begin at the Day of the Lord. This Day of the Lord will begin with the great earthquake of the 6th seal.

 

But what event will TRIGGER this day of the Lord? HOW will we get from the peace of the church age - the age of grace - to the start of the Day of the Lord?

 

The trigger for it all will be the rapture of the Bride of Christ.

 

So indeed, Jesus WILL stay in heaven until it is time for the restoration process to begin. When the Father says, "go get my bride," it will be time.

 

LAMAD

Edited July 18, 2014 by iamlamad

[Defending the Name]

I do not think I have ever seen this discussed.19"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. (hyperlinks are to the underlying Greek)Now, I see no need to discuss the merits and demerits of the various rapture positions in this thread, that has been done over and over in other threads, But notice that this says that Heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the period of restoration. What does this mean? The language is a bit clunky for 21st century English, To me, if heaven must receive him until, that means He remains there until.If that contradicts your particular pet end times theory, then you will probably disagree already, but I think that if one is not swayed by what one presumes, one would agree that this is the natural understanding of these words. Assuming I am correct for a moment, we then see that there is an event that cancels the requirement of Jesus remaining in Heaven. This is referred to in the verse as "the period of restoration of all things. Now, would we presume that the perod of restoration is the tribulation, or any time prior to it? I think not. Therefore, this verse seems to rule out Jesus leaving heaven anytime until some other event after the tribulation. My bet is that the time of restoration, is the Millenial Kingdom, or perhaps the war where Jesus defeats Satan so that the Millenium may begin.

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

You are in error friend.

Time of the restoration is when The Lord came to dwell in the believer as the Holy Ghost. This encompasses the great harvest of God that is the entire new covenant age. It is the Holy Ghost who restores man to Christ's heavenly barn through the first resurrection on the faithfuls last day when they die.

Romans 8:9-11

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Holy Ghost is The Lord ministering to us by his Holy Spirit who restores us on our last day on the earthly body as he promised the faithful.

The order of the resurrection is Christ then the old covenant first fruits (144,000) then every new covenant man and women in their own order after they die. It is the Lord's Holy Spirit who restores everything to the Father from justification, sanctification and onto resurrection. Christ's is with us and he will continue to save people right up to the end of the great harvest of God until all that were in his book of life will be restored. This is not a one of event for it is an event encompassing the entire time of the great harvest of God when Christ initiated the long awaited resurrection of the dead after he arose.

1 Corinthians 15:20-26

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death

Edited September 7, 2014 by Defending the Name

[Salty]

I do not think I have ever seen this  discussed.

 

19"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

(hyperlinks are to the underlying Greek)

 

 

Now, I see no need to discuss the merits and demerits of the various rapture positions in this thread, that has been done over and over in other threads, But notice that this says that Heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the period of restoration. 

What does this mean? The language is a bit clunky for 21st century English, To me, if heaven must receive him until, that means He remains there until.

 

 

If that contradicts your particular pet end times theory, then you will probably disagree already, but I think that if one is not swayed by what one presumes, one would agree that this is the natural understanding of these words. Assuming I am correct for a moment, we then see that there is an event that cancels the requirement of Jesus remaining in Heaven. This is referred to in the verse as "the period of restoration of all things. Now, would we presume that the perod of restoration is the tribulation, or any time prior to it? I think not. Therefore, this verse seems to rule out Jesus leaving heaven anytime until some other event after the tribulation. My bet is that the time of restoration, is the Millenial Kingdom, or perhaps the war where Jesus defeats Satan so that the Millenium may begin.

 

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

 

 

See 1 Cor.15:23-28

[Giantbear7]

I do not think I have ever seen this discussed.

19"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

(hyperlinks are to the underlying Greek)

Now, I see no need to discuss the merits and demerits of the various rapture positions in this thread, that has been done over and over in other threads, But notice that this says that Heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the period of restoration.

What does this mean? The language is a bit clunky for 21st century English, To me, if heaven must receive him until, that means He remains there until.

If that contradicts your particular pet end times theory, then you will probably disagree already, but I think that if one is not swayed by what one presumes, one would agree that this is the natural understanding of these words. Assuming I am correct for a moment, we then see that there is an event that cancels the requirement of Jesus remaining in Heaven. This is referred to in the verse as "the period of restoration of all things. Now, would we presume that the perod of restoration is the tribulation, or any time prior to it? I think not. Therefore, this verse seems to rule out Jesus leaving heaven anytime until some other event after the tribulation. My bet is that the time of restoration, is the Millenial Kingdom, or perhaps the war where Jesus defeats Satan so that the Millenium may begin.

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

Time of restoration must encompass the time from Christ's ascension until the seventh trumpet is sounded. Restoration of Man must be through the resurrection. Scripture clearly identifies restoration when Christ delivers up every believer to the heavenly kingdom of God through the resurrection.

1Co 15:23-24

23 But every man in his own order:Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(KJV)

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Parker1.

 

 

 

I think that you are misinterpreting Scripture. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the clouds, his feet never touch the Earth; therefore He remains in Heaven. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

So, are you saying that Jesus does not have to leave Heaven (the abode of God that He ascended to) becuase he merely went down to the heavens, the atmosphere, where the clouds are, and therefore, as long as His feet hover an inch over the ground, He is still in Heaven? Really? Cool. I can reach heaven just by jumping or taking a plane trip!

 

That's just ignorant. The clouds are not an inch from the ground. And there are said to be three Heavens; the atmosphere, the universe, and the place where GOD lives. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

 

 

Well, that's the common error. Actually, Peter said that the first "heaven" (atmosphere) was before the Flood, the second "heaven" (atmosphere) is between Noah's Flood and the Fire, and the third "heaven" (atmosphere) will be after the Fire. See 2 Peter 3:3-13.