The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[iamlamad]

What if the whole revelation was spanned over a longer time frame and we were actually already after the sixth seal already?

What if what we were defining the events to be were not really the things we thought they were?

I have lost sight of the rapture business and have focused on living for God in all I do. I know that what I have asked above will be met with a heavy dose of denial and skepticism but that is the nature of this type of discussion.

WOW! That first "what if" is a BRILLIANT point! It is TRUTH. We are right now between teh 5th and 6th seal.

 

However, the rapture "business" should be YOUR business, for you must be ready and WATCHING when He comes.

Furthermore, I am convinced you must have FAITH in His coming first If you wish to be caught up.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Lamad,

Wow, you just gave me something to ponder with your last post. I'm not sure it is right but it is certainly something to ponder.

I have struggled with this thought for a long time- are the seals in the 70th week of Daniel or before it. Your post has renewed my thoughts on this. Thanks for challenging me.

Just for a while, try to fit all that people SAY are in the first half of the week, into a 3 1/2 year period of time. To start, How do you get WARS [one war may last for years], RUMORs of wars [they can last even longer than wars] , many false Christs, "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom," famines [each one may last several years], and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," 6 seals, 6 trumpets [the 7th marks the midpoint] all into 3 1/2 years? Of course with God it would be possible, but is this the author's INTENTION? I don't think so. In fact, I know the 70th week starts with the 7th seal. The 5th seal are the martyrs of the CHURCH age.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

When one understands the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5, the seals are in perfect order. And we KNOW (no doubt at all) that seal # 1 was first just by process of elimination - all the rest are numbered as they are broken. Why did John use numbers? Of course for SEQUENCING. Why would anyone think they should rearrange what John wrote, when He used numbers?

 

The vision of the throne room IS the context of the seals - and sets the TIME of the first seals. John saw a vision of the throne room OF THE PAST. He was looking into the throne room during a time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Notice that Jesus was NOT seen at first at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. Stephen SAW Him there.

 

Next, during the first search to find one worthy, that search ended in FAILURE. WHY did it end in failure? Simply because in this vision the TIME was before Jesus rose from the dead. John was seeing a HISTORY LESSON.

 

Next, if one notices, in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit is STILL in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. WHY was the Holy Spirit still there? Simply because JEsus had not yet ascended in the vision.

 

Then, John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and entered the throne room - as a lamb having been slain. TIME? About 32 AD. And John SAW the Holy Spirit sent down the very instant Jesus arrived. TIME? About 32 AD. The moment Jesus arose from the dead  - He became the redeemer and was immediately found worthy to break the seals. So the moment He arrived after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not ascended - He then ascended to the Throne room and took the scroll from the Father's hand and began breaking seals. NO ONE can find 2000 years between any of those verses because it is just not there.

 

Therefore the first seals were broken around 32 AD. So what does the white horse represent? It represents the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. The next three horse ride together. They represent the efforts of the DEVIL to stop the church from escaping the 1/4 of the earth they were assigned to. We can be SURE that 1/4 will be centered on Jerusalem.

 

Of course the Devil failed, and the church broke through, because the gates of hell can NEVER stop the church! There is simply no where on the planet now someone cannot hear the gospel.

 

We can know for sure that the trumpets and the vials will come in order, because John NUMBERED them. And as Salty pointed out, the woes are numbered also for sequence. Since the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the vials were numbered for sequencing, why would anyone think the rest of the book would not be in the proper order?

 

Finally, it is MYTH to say there is a coming at the 7th trumpet. Why would anyone even think this, when John was so clear in his writing that Jesus comes in chapter 19?

 

LAMAD

 

 

John's vision given him in Rev.4 & 5 is a future-forward look into Christ's Millennium and forward, simply because those 24 elders are shown there already wearing crowns. The handing out of crowns is a rewards by Christ topic, and does not occur until after His return.

 

Even Rev.5:9 with those elders proclaiming how they were 'redeemed' out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, is pointing to the time after Christ's return, which is when the 'redemption' will occur.

 

If the truth be told, we were redeemed before the foundation of the earth. But in reality we became redeemed the moment Jesus rose from the dead and defeated death.  That is just what they said: You have redeemed us." WHEN? The moment He rose from the dead. They said this shortly after He told Mary not to hold on to Him for He had not yet ascended - and then He ascended.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Salty

 

Here is a quote from you: 

 

John's vision given him in Rev.4 & 5 is a future-forward look into Christ's Millennium and forward, simply because those 24 elders are shown there already wearing crowns. The handing out of crowns is a rewards by Christ topic, and does not occur until after His return.

 

Even Rev.5:9 with those elders proclaiming how they were 'redeemed' out of every kindred, tongue, and people, and nation, is pointing to the time after Christ's return, which is when the 'redemption' will occur.

 

So according to what you posted, the Scroll that Jesus receives is not opened until after the Second Coming and into  the 1000 years, and therefore all the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments must happen during the 1000 years.  This is a totally false pretense you have brought up.

 

The 24 Elders, and the 4 living creatures who are around the throne all ask, "Who is Worthy to open the Scroll and Seven seals".  Jesus then is the one who is able to open the Scroll.  This is taking place at least pre mid-trib, or post pre-trib when this happens up in Heaven.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The scroll and seals in Rev.5 do not determine the timing of when Christ hands out the crowns to His elect at His coming, which is when they are to reign with Him as kings and priests.

 

If you think all subjects within a single Bible chapter must always follow the same timeframe then you would be subject to all sorts of deceptions, just from lack of understanding how God's Word often jumps to the past, present, and future even within a short space of a verse or two. This the Books of the OT prophets do all the time, and Christ's Revelation follows that format like the Books of the OT prophets. This is why Revelation reads so differently than the rest of the NT Books.

 

"Christ's Revelation follows that format like the Books of the OT prophets."

 

This is very  WRONG. In other words, a MYTH.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

I'm trying to keep up with this discussion but some of these posts are hard to follow. Anyhow, for those who care to know what I am thinking, being an OBJECTIVE bystander here, here goes my thoughts on 3 points of contention:

1. For what it's worth, salty's argument about shoving rev 5 (the elders stuff) into the millennium does not make sense at all. And you don't even have to be a Vulcan to know that. Lol. Imo, Marvelous Marv rebutted that beautifully.

2. Brother Argosy's argument that there is only one earthquake is found wanting. I do believe there is a difference between moving and disappearing, and I know God is not limited to one earthquake only, so let's not shove them all in one. Not that simple I'm afraid.

3. It makes much more sense to have the bowls follow the trumpets and the trumpets to follow the seals. I go back to this instruction I received a long time ago: unless it doesn't make sense, go with a literal translation. In this instance, to have each judgment be consecutive is not ILLOGICAL. Again, even a non Vulcan can see that.

Thoughts on my thoughts are always welcomed.

Spock on the sidelines

All very good points, Spock! Live Long, and PROSPER.  [3 John 2)

 

LAMAD

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

After the Second Coming Christ is ruling on Earth not in Heaven.

 

So as in Rev 4 and 5, this scene is up in Heaven (the Fathers House)  God the Father is sitting in the center of the Throne in Heaven. This I even know.  There are only two options, Post Millennial view in Heaven, or a Pre Second Coming view.  No other choices.

 

We see 24 Elders who are from every tribe, language, people and nation, (the same as those in the Church, who are also to be priests) and they will reign on earth.  Oops, that leaves out the Post Mill view.   So this scene Must be pre - Second Coming, no other option.  Yet we see the Lamb opening the scroll which are the events which take place during the Great Tribulation.  (the time of Great Distress of Matt 24:21) or before.  So this leaves a time before the mid trib post; No other option given the facts as described in Rev 4 and 5.  The crown of glory has already been given to these 24 Elders, and they cast them back to Jesus.  The Church also receives their crown of glory when the 24 Elders do, for they are all part of the Body of Christ/Church/Bride of Christ.

 

John 14 - I am going to my Fathers House to prepare a place for you (a heavenly scene).  And a Second Coming gathering those in the Fathers House (from one end of heaven to the other).

 

We see the 24 Elders before the opeing of the Scroll and throughout the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments.  Sorry but the Church is in Heaven at this time (the Fathers House).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

Where in the Bible does it say the 24 elders are synonymous with the church ?

[Montana Marv]

KJV - Rev 5:9 - And they sang a new song; You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased us for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

And your reply; well maybe they are Jewish.  And my response - Daniel 12:13 - As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end.  You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.  The Second Coming.

 

Who else can the 24 Elders be except those esteemed from the Church/Bride.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

Montana Marv, you said we see the 24 elders before the opening of the scroll and thruout the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments. Sorry but the church is in heaven at this time.

The one hole I see in your claim is rev. 6:11. This is during the opening of the fifth seal of the seven seals on the scroll But after the 24 elders. 6:11 says and white robes were given unto every one of them; and It was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until thier fellow servants and thier brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fufiled.

This is evidence not all of the church is in heaven at this time. How do you explain this scripture?

 

Cletus

 

The scenes are taking place in heaven.  So are the 24 Elders as are the Four Living Creatures.  This is a heavenly vision that John saw or was taken in the Spirit to.

 

Those of the 5th Seal were all beheaded (Rev 20:4)  How many of the Church over the past 2000 years have been beheaded?   Rev 10:11b -They must wait until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.  Yes these were given white robes.  Yet the 24 Elders were dressed in white;   Rev 19:7 - Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory, For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.  Fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear. [fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints].

 

There is a distinction between fine linen and white robes.  For all those who make it out of the great tribulation all receive white robes also (Rev  7: 9-14).

 

Those of the 5th Seal are not the Church or Bride, yet they become believers because of the witness of the angel in Rev 14: 6,7.

 

There are OT saints, NT saints, Tribulation saints, yet only the NT saints are considered the Bride of Christ.  The major thing that binds the Tribulation saints is that all were beheaded.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[ARGOSY]

That is very simple, I see the progression written just as a history book was written, in time sequence. I see the 7th seal as the opening of the 70th week, the 7th trumpet as the midpoint, and the 7th vial as the end. I have no doubt about that, for that was the very first thing God sent me to find, and told me how to find it. I see that John was meticulous with his chronology all through the book. As an example, sort of as an intermission between the 6th and 7th seal, the sealing of the 144,000 must be accomplished before the 70th week begins. And of course the church must be raptured before john writes of the Wrath of God has come.

 

 

Ok thanks for explaining, I see it as a series of visions, not one vision in history book sequence.  You seem to believe context supports your sequence, obviously we disagree with this as has been discussed in this thread. (eg Rev 6 - the 6th seal)

 

 

 

Because I see how close John holds to sequence or chronology, I know that chapter 19 is in the very same perfect sequence. The marriage and supper will take place in heaven before Jesus ever gets on His white horse. I see that the Bride is ALREADY THERE in heaven, before Jesus ascends. This completely destroys all posttrib doctrines, so they have to rearrange Revelation to make their theory fit - exactly what they accuse pretribbers of doing. Next, there is MUCH evidence of this marriage in heaven from people that have been to heaven and seen the preparations: tables spread as far as the eye can see, each place setting with a name on it.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Yes there are some sequences in Revelation, and post-tribbers certainly agree on a marriage feast. Nothing about this marriage feast comes close to destroying any post-trib doctrine; the order of events is always easy to explain. (Jesus fetches his bride, and then later on destroys the armies at Armageddon).  Anyway thanks for chatting about these things.