The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

Just printed off your post & going to have a good look at it. One day it would be good to have a debate with you on this topic in the closed debating area where we can work it through without interruptions. Are you game?

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

Yes, we need to keep the main thing the main thing - Christ & also as you said our sense of humour.  So when do you want to have this debate? Am I right that you want to debate against the pre-trib?

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

I am hearing you. So what will the topic be? I am willing to debate the pre- trib view, unless you have another suggestion. What would you call your view?

Also that`s fine about into next week. When we get the topic sorted out then I will approach George. I`m looking forward to this discussion, debate, chat, & I`m sure lots of interesting things will come up.

 

 

Just thought as you said you don`t agree with all of the views you may as well just do my view - pre-trib. So will we call our debate -

Is the pre-tribulation view correct from God`s word?  or have you a suggestion?

 

How about - `The return of the Lord.` & then we can discuss many things from there.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

You had a good post #293 regarding truth/flaw.

 

 

Now as regards to Christ`s coming -

 

You were right that Christ comes as a thief on the Day of the Lord. That is to Israel & the nations.  (2 Peter 3: 10    Rev. 16: 15  as you quoted)

 

However Jesus says to His Body that He will NOT come to them as a thief for they are NOT in darkness but in the light (of the Holy Spirit). (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5   Heb. 10: 25)  Also Jesus warned those in Sardis that He would come to them as a thief unless they repented. (Rev. 3: 3) Sober words indeed.

 

Are you (any of us) in darkness that Jesus will come as a thief, or are you in the light & looking for His coming, being watchful & obedient, knowing that in your spirit as the time draws nearer & nearer your spirit will sense His coming & you will not be taken unawares.

 

Uh, Jesus was giving His Rev.16:15 Message to His Church on earth, NOT to unbelieving Israel and unbelieiving nations.

 

And the Church at Sardis... does... represent one of His Churches also.

 

I see you're trying to be real specific about this in a way that steers around Christ's Message to His Church there in Rev.16:15, but I think you're fooling yourself.

 

You should... well know that some believers on Christ will fall away in the last days per what Apostle Paul showed us in 2 Thess.2. Will that mean Christ's coming will take those by surprise "as a thief"? You bet it will!!!

 

Thus Apostle Paul's idea in 1 Thess.5 that Christ's coming "as a thief in the night" is not to be a surprise, is ONLY... for those who remain faithful to Christ presenting themselves to Him as "a chaste virgin" when He comes. It does not apply to deceived brethren who don't stay "a chaste virgin" waiting on His coming.

 

So reading it again --

 

Rev.16:15

¹⁵ Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

Those "garments" represents the garments of His Salvation for His Church, not unbelieving Israel and definitely not unbelieving Gentiles. He and His Apostles warned His Church to 'watch'. As a matter of fact, that was one of Paul's specific admonitions for the Church in 1 Thess.5, to watch and remain sober (spiritually) and not asleep (spiritually) as some do (the deceived brethren).

 

I didn't think you believed on the doctrine of men called the secret Pre-Tribulational Rapture, but I'm not so sure now. And I think this settles your question about who is in darkness on this matter.

[Salty]

@ Salty

 

It would seem I'm not going to get you to be honest about your theory in showing its weakness.

 

Talk like that isn't even worth addressing. Don't both to ask me the time of day either with that kind of gibberish in that post.

[Montana Marv]

With regard to the 1st Seal starting in 32 -33 A.D.  The beginning of the Church; I say this is wrong; the major reasoning being Rev 1:3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

 

The Book of Revelation is Prophecy, future events.  John went up into heaven and saw what the future would be like, or what would unfold in the future.  The start up of the Church was past tense.  The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are all future events.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Spock]

With regard to the 1st Seal starting in 32 -33 A.D. The beginning of the Church; I say this is wrong; the major reasoning being Rev 1:3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The Book of Revelation is Prophecy, future events. John went up into heaven and saw what the future would be like, or what would unfold in the future. The start up of the Church was past tense. The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are all future events.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv,

Admittedly, I believed what you said- it has to be all future- but now I'm not so sure. I know the basis for making that statement, but I'm no longer sure the conclusion you draw has to be the only one.

Making the seals cover a long time span (32 AD - day of The Lord Judgment) still seems prophetic to me. In other words, while yes, 32 AD was in the past from when John wrote revelation (95 AD), yet it continues onward to the future. It still seems to me that all of these seals are still being carried out in "the future."

Unlike you, I'm not so sure anymore.

PS. Oh, one other thing Marv. I think you have even more problems trying to shove all the seals, trumpets, and bowls in a 7 year window. Read the 4 horsemen carefully, this does not sound like a "quickie" to me. Does it you?

[Spock]

Inchrist,

Yes, paul encourages the body to be of one mind and get along, but that is the standard and the hope, of course.

For example, it is my desire that all my students EXCEED on the state tests given to them at the end of the year. It ain't going to happen, but that is my expectation and I let them know that.

Same here, paul is letting us know his expectation, but I'm sure he knows, it ain't going to happen.

To have every believer read the bible and come away believing in exactly the same thing is asking wayyyyy to much.

However, I believe that is not what is important here. I believe paul means we are to LOVE AND RESPECT each other through our differences. In other words, while believe post trib rapture is erroneous, I do not look down and make my postie brothers think I am superior than them. I do not withhold fellowship and I still embrace them as being equal and one in Christ with myself.

Oh, by the way, I read your faults you found with pre trib and I believe Marilyn will answer most if not all of them. (I'm sure she won't be able to do the same with the list of faults concerning post trib. Wink)

[Salty]

With regard to the 1st Seal starting in 32 -33 A.D.  The beginning of the Church; I say this is wrong; the major reasoning being Rev 1:3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

 

The Book of Revelation is Prophecy, future events.  John went up into heaven and saw what the future would be like, or what would unfold in the future.  The start up of the Church was past tense.  The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are all future events.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Excellent point.

[Salty]

 

With regard to the 1st Seal starting in 32 -33 A.D. The beginning of the Church; I say this is wrong; the major reasoning being Rev 1:3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The Book of Revelation is Prophecy, future events. John went up into heaven and saw what the future would be like, or what would unfold in the future. The start up of the Church was past tense. The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are all future events.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv,

Admittedly, I believed what you said- it has to be all future- but now I'm not so sure. I know the basis for making that statement, but I'm no longer sure the conclusion you draw has to be the only one.

Making the seals cover a long time span (32 AD - day of The Lord Judgment) still seems prophetic to me. In other words, while yes, 32 AD was in the past from when John wrote revelation (95 AD), yet it continues onward to the future. It still seems to me that all of these seals are still being carried out in "the future."

Unlike you, I'm not so sure anymore.

PS. Oh, one other thing Marv. I think you have even more problems trying to shove all the seals, trumpets, and bowls in a 7 year window. Read the 4 horsemen carefully, this does not sound like a "quickie" to me. Does it you?

 

 

Yet you're onto something too. Because the timing of some events of the seals do overlap.