TWO comings TWO raptures

[Last Daze]

3) Too vague of a question without establishing definitions.

 

1) OK, now that I have provided the definitions and you seem to agree with them, can you answer the question,

 

“3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?”

 

That depends on where in the NT and where in Revelation.  How about specific verses?

[ENOCH2010]

I have a question for tevans9129....Which resurrection is the pre-trib rapture joined to ? The Bible plainly speaks of 2 coming resurrections of a massive amount of people, the first happening at the second coming ,(Rev:20) and the other happening after the 1000 year reign.(Again Rev:20) Would you please provide scripture with your answer.

[justfaith]

There will be only two  resurrection one at Jesus second coming for the righteous  and the other after the 1000 years for the wicked to be judge

 

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)

 

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Acts 24:15King James Version (KJV)

 

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)

 

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Guest Jesse]

 

There will be only two  resurrection one at Jesus second coming for the righteous  and the other after the 1000 years for the wicked to be judge

 

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)

 

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Acts 24:15King James Version (KJV)

 

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)

 

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

 

1.The first resurrection, only the ones in christ. After the test and passed.

2.The second resurrection, all the dead; the just and the unjust.The sheep and the goats.

   judged by the books.

 

jesse.

[tevans9129]

I have a question for tevans9129....Which resurrection is the pre-trib rapture joined to ? The Bible plainly speaks of 2 coming resurrections of a massive amount of people, the first happening at the second coming ,(Rev:20) and the other happening after the 1000 year reign.(Again Rev:20) Would you please provide scripture with your answer.

 

I have a question for tevans9129....Which resurrection is the pre-trib rapture joined to ?

 

1) If I understand correctly what you are asking, my answer is the first, which began at the resurrection of Jesus and more precisely the one referred to in 1Thess 4:16,17

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1a) “The dead in Christ will rise first”, would you not consider that a resurrection?

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

1a) and is also referred to in Isa. 26:19-21

 

 Isaiah 26:19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

 

1b)  Is that not the resurrection of the dead just as is spoken of in 1 Thess 4:16?

 

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course.

 

1c) How does this make any sense if it is not the believers who are called up to meet the Lord in the air and are there throughout the tribulation period, Rev 4 – 18?

 

Isaiah 26:21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.

 

1d) Would you say this is describing the events of Rev 4 -18 and if so, why would the Lord be punishing the church, are our sins not forgiven when we accept Christ as our Savior?

 

1e) Why do you suppose there is not one mention of the church being on earth after Rev 3?

 

The Bible plainly speaks of 2 coming resurrections of a massive amount of people, the first happening at the second coming ,(Rev:20)

 

2) I disagree, the first began with Jesus’ resurrection in Matthew 27.

 

Matthew 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

 

Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

 

2a) That seems to me to be a long time before Rev 20, do you not think so?

 

 and the other happening after the 1000 year reign.(Again Rev:20) Would you please provide scripture with your answer.

 

3) Again, I must disagree with you.

 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

3a) Here is a group that were beheaded in the GT that came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years, so how could they be in the resurrection you suggested?

 

Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

 

3b) This is the resurrection of the wicked as explained in vs 11-15 who will be judged at the great white throne.

 

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

 

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

 

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

 

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

4) How could they reign with Christ for a thousand years if, they were not resurrected until the second resurrection which is after the thousand years?

 

4a) Considering the quoted verses, when would you say those who will reign with Christ for a thousand years were resurrected, before, during or after the tribulation?

 

5) As you can see, I have addressed your comments point-by-point and have answered all of your questions. I have also quoted scripture, just as it is written, in support of my answers and comments.

 

5a) I hope you will extend to me the same courtesy and respond to my post in like manner, will you?

[Salty]

 

Salty -   I've addressed all points you've raised, and pointed you to the Scriptures on the matter, more Scriptures about the subject than you include in your limited question scope. Sounds like you're wanting to do a bowing out.

 

 

 

 

 1) Salty, there are times when I do “bow out” of a dialogue and the reasons are, if, someone is intentionally dishonest, as an example, if I point out they have not answered my questions and they respond with something like, “I have addressed all of your points” and ignore the fact that they have not answered my questions, then I construe that as being dishonest.

 

2) The number two reason is when they refuse to answer my questions, all of them, and provide supporting evidence with scripture just as it is written.

 

3) I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

4) I have asked a number of questions that you have not answered and if that is general practice for you, then there would be nothing productive from a dialogue. Therefore, if you can answer my questions, all of them, just as I am willing to do for you, I will enthusiastically discuss any subject you choose, if not, then I will not waste your time or mine.

 

 

Your wanting to bow out is because after I answered you with Scripture you intentionally disregarded it and my questions. And now you want to make up stories that your questions were not properly answered?

 

Now then, just so you know, you're doing nothing but 'asking questions' is NOT dialogue. It's just asking questions, and if you don't get the specific answer YOU WANT, you claim your questions have not been answered. That is a clear show of dishonesty, being two-faced.

[OneLight]

This thread is getting back to being personal. Last chance ... stop making it personal of those who do will have to sit out from participating or the thread may be closed completely.

[tevans9129]

 

 

Salty -   I've addressed all points you've raised, and pointed you to the Scriptures on the matter, more Scriptures about the subject than you include in your limited question scope. Sounds like you're wanting to do a bowing out.

 

 

 

 

 1) Salty, there are times when I do “bow out” of a dialogue and the reasons are, if, someone is intentionally dishonest, as an example, if I point out they have not answered my questions and they respond with something like, “I have addressed all of your points” and ignore the fact that they have not answered my questions, then I construe that as being dishonest.

 

2) The number two reason is when they refuse to answer my questions, all of them, and provide supporting evidence with scripture just as it is written.

 

3) I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

4) I have asked a number of questions that you have not answered and if that is general practice for you, then there would be nothing productive from a dialogue. Therefore, if you can answer my questions, all of them, just as I am willing to do for you, I will enthusiastically discuss any subject you choose, if not, then I will not waste your time or mine.

 

 

Your wanting to bow out is because after I answered you with Scripture you intentionally disregarded it and my questions. And now you want to make up stories that your questions were not properly answered?

 

Now then, just so you know, you're doing nothing but 'asking questions' is NOT dialogue. It's just asking questions, and if you don't get the specific answer YOU WANT, you claim your questions have not been answered. That is a clear show of dishonesty, being two-faced.

 

1) Salty, here is a list of questions that I have asked you and have not seen you answer.  Why did you not say that you answered my questions rather than “I answered you with Scripture”? That is pretty slick I must admit some folks call it deception.

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

 

3) Can you point out where there is anything in those verses about Jesus coming to earth?

 

4) Does it make sense that Jesus would come to earth to call believers to meet Him in the air?

 

6) Can you quote one verse in Zech 14 that is directed toward Christians?

 

7) Where did I imply that Paul knew nothing about Zech 14?

 

8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing?

 

8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God?

 

8c) When is this “hour of testing”, who is it promised to, how is it accomplished and can you quote scripture as it is written supporting your answers?

 

8d) Who, when and how “shall be saved from the wrath of God?

 

8e) Does that say anything about persecution or tribulation or is it specific to God’s wrath?

 

 

8f) What “wrath to come” is Jesus going to rescue us from?

 

What are your thoughts on Replacement Theology?

 

2) Now, if you will quote your answers for those questions, then I will agree with your assertion, and will apologize for stating that you have not answered my questions. How can you decline such a generous offer? If you cannot, or refuse to, then I think any reasonably intelligent person will have no doubt as to what it means.

[Salty]

 

 

 

Salty -   I've addressed all points you've raised, and pointed you to the Scriptures on the matter, more Scriptures about the subject than you include in your limited question scope. Sounds like you're wanting to do a bowing out.

 

 

 

 

 1) Salty, there are times when I do “bow out” of a dialogue and the reasons are, if, someone is intentionally dishonest, as an example, if I point out they have not answered my questions and they respond with something like, “I have addressed all of your points” and ignore the fact that they have not answered my questions, then I construe that as being dishonest.

 

2) The number two reason is when they refuse to answer my questions, all of them, and provide supporting evidence with scripture just as it is written.

 

3) I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

4) I have asked a number of questions that you have not answered and if that is general practice for you, then there would be nothing productive from a dialogue. Therefore, if you can answer my questions, all of them, just as I am willing to do for you, I will enthusiastically discuss any subject you choose, if not, then I will not waste your time or mine.

 

 

Your wanting to bow out is because after I answered you with Scripture you intentionally disregarded it and my questions. And now you want to make up stories that your questions were not properly answered?

 

Now then, just so you know, you're doing nothing but 'asking questions' is NOT dialogue. It's just asking questions, and if you don't get the specific answer YOU WANT, you claim your questions have not been answered. That is a clear show of dishonesty, being two-faced.

 

1) Salty, here is a list of questions that I have asked you and have not seen you answer.  Why did you not say that you answered my questions rather than “I answered you with Scripture”? That is pretty slick I must admit some folks call it deception.

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

 

3) Can you point out where there is anything in those verses about Jesus coming to earth?

 

4) Does it make sense that Jesus would come to earth to call believers to meet Him in the air?

 

6) Can you quote one verse in Zech 14 that is directed toward Christians?

 

7) Where did I imply that Paul knew nothing about Zech 14?

 

8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing?

 

8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God?

 

8c) When is this “hour of testing”, who is it promised to, how is it accomplished and can you quote scripture as it is written supporting your answers?

 

8d) Who, when and how “shall be saved from the wrath of God?

 

8e) Does that say anything about persecution or tribulation or is it specific to God’s wrath?

 

 

8f) What “wrath to come” is Jesus going to rescue us from?

 

What are your thoughts on Replacement Theology?

 

2) Now, if you will quote your answers for those questions, then I will agree with your assertion, and will apologize for stating that you have not answered my questions. How can you decline such a generous offer? If you cannot, or refuse to, then I think any reasonably intelligent person will have no doubt as to what it means.

 

 

Have you ever heard of the question, "Are you still beating your wife?"That's the kind of questions you're asking, loaded questions which disregard other Scripture evidence that reveals more Truth... about the subject... of the question. In a court of law all... evidence is supposed to be weighed; trying to purposefully omit... evidence is unethical behaviour. Trying to do that using God's Holy Writ is the way of a charlatan.

[justfaith]

 

 

There will be only two  resurrection one at Jesus second coming for the righteous  and the other after the 1000 years for the wicked to be judge

 

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)

 

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Acts 24:15King James Version (KJV)

 

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV)

 

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

 

1.The first resurrection, only the ones in christ. After the test and passed.

2.The second resurrection, all the dead; the just and the unjust.The sheep and the goats.

   judged by the books.

 

jesse.

 

Dear Jesse the dead and alive in Christ are resurrected and caught up respectfully, where did the second set of just persons came from after the 1000 years ?

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18King James Version (KJV)

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.