Revelation 13

[Marilyn C]

Hi inchrist,

 

Once again you bring a clarion call of truth & clarity. Well done dear friend in the Lord.

[ARGOSY]

 

I see some flaws in a Jewish Antichrist

 

1. Why would a Jew sign a peace treaty with Jews? Makes no sense

2. Why would a Jew commit genocide and wipe out 2/3 of the Jewish Nation? He would have to also commit suicide, "being a Jew", as part of his Genocide. Makes no sense

3. When the Antichrist reveals himself in the middle of the Tribulation and claims to be god the Jews will be horrified and will totally reject him causing him to turn on them in fury and launch an attempt to annihilate them again 2/3 of them

4. Daniel 9:27 (HCSB) — He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. Notice the word many? Doesn’t say Israel but we can assume Israel is part of many and others.

5. Further you are assuming how the Jews will react in thinking or accepting the Antichrist as Messiah. When infact, he will come in his own name as God, not as the Messiah of the Jews.

 

 

I believe only Israel has ever fulfilled this according to the correct tenses uses in the verse (was and is not, and yet will come). Israel is therefore the future 8th kingdom and beast empire in my eyes.

 

 

 

I have issues with this statement and can not accept it simply because God promised the Israelites the promised land for ever…This 8th kingdom is to be destroyed and wiped off the face of the earth…God effectively breaks his promise and instead set up or conned Israel to be the epitome of pure Evil instead of a light to the world and to be destroyed forever.  

 

Lastly we are commanded to bless Israel, why would God tell us to bless Israel when she is to be the epitome of Evil the beast empire? Then it was better to have left Hitler to wipe the Jews of the the face of the earth if Israel's destiny was to be the most evil empire the world has ever known? 

 

It completely contradicts scripture

I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

 

Through Evil?

 

 

Isn't your view a little naive. Israel was always supposed to be a blessing and yet failed completely many times. whenever Israel failed completely God sent an army of judgment to evil Israel to destroy Israel.  This occurred when Assyria attacked Israel, when the Babylonians attacked and destroyed Jerusalem, and when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem.

 

When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem some Jews , known as the Zealots, were very evil and were running Jerusalem. They committed many disgusting acts of sin on the temple grounds and in Jerusalem and the historian Josephus records those acts. Murder, cannibalism, false trials with false witnesses, theft , mass murder of moral citizens. They desecrated the temple in many ways and often.

 

I guess you would have been supporting the evil government of Jerusalem at that time? It was also during the church age, in 70AD and that is your philosophy, I believe that viewpoint is entirely naive. When I pray for the blessing of Israel at the moment I pray for their repentance. Joel 2 and Ezekiel 39 are clear Israel is in sin before the day of the Lord. 

[ARGOSY]

ARGOSY

 

 

Isn't your view a little naive.

 

 I expect God to uphold all his promises. So yes that respect I'm very Naive and proud of it.

 

And talking about promises God also promised to never destroy Israel again. Yes Israel sinned and were punished but God never did forsake them. The fact that God is restoring the two houses of Israel to the land of Israel proves God has never forsaking them and has always kept to his word that Israel will forever occupy the promised land after all they are his chosen people. 

 

So which brings us back to my question, if Israel is the 8th kingdom, the beast empire and we all know it is going to be completely and utterly laid to waste and wiped off the earth, why then would God make promises and not keep it? Why would God set up Israel to be the epitome of Evil and send it to hell? Like I said if that is the case then I need to create my own God who keeps his word and it would of been better to have left Hitler to carry on with the "good work" he was doing.

 

I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

 

Last time I checked, the Israelites in our modern age have certainly been blessing nations

Yes God does uphold his promises, we can agree on that. but God never promised that Israel would always be a blessing no matter what they did.  Yes in the Messianic age they will be a blessing , that is what God promised. Israel will not be laid waste, I agree. This time Israel will repent as per the wording of Joel 2 and Ezekiel 39.  Until then Israel is in sin as per the wording of Joel 2 and Ezekiel 39. This sin is the reason why God allows Gog to be so successful until they repent.

 

After the repentance Jesus himself intervenes at the second coming and restores Israel , making them a blessing to the nations. In 70AD they were not a blessing but an object of God's destruction. I therefore do not see this principle of perpetual blessing of Israel that you are so confidently espousing borne out in reality, nor in the doctrine of the bible which promises to send destroying armies whenever Israel is in sin.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Last time I checked, the Israelites in our modern age have certainly been blessing nations

 

I definitely disagree with this. Ask the 700 000 Palestinians displaced illegally via ethnic cleansing from their own homes. Ask Russian journalists who is really behind the disruptions of Syria. Ask the families of the Iranian scientists who were assassinated by Israel.  Israel was not always a blessing, that is why God sent the Assyrian , Babylonian and Roman armies and that is why he promises to send Gog to attack them as well. God wishes to drive Israel to repentance through the Gog/Joel attack.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

I agree with you that the antichrist would be a Jewish leader, but I don't see a problem with a Kurdish Jew being accepted by Jews. Are Jews from Russia, the USA and Europe somehow more Jewish than Jews from northern Iraq?  Don't they all have the same heritage? The Jewish community has been there in Iraq for thousands of years.

 

 

I do see a problem, because our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us a huge clue of what king of person the coming Antichrist will be, which is different from any other little antichrist that has appeared in history. The distinction is with the great signs, wonders, and miracles he will do to deceive the whole world with in playing God.

 

In Matt.24:23-26 that's the level our Lord Jesus showed, but the Greek word there is 'pseudo-Christos', meaning 'a pseudo Christ'. The reason why that part of Matt.24 is different than those who come in the early part of the chapter that only 'say' they are Christ, is the miracles that pseudo-Christ is to do, and He showed it will be on a level of deception so powerful that it would even deceive His own very elect, if it were possible for them to be deceived (they won't be for He has showed them).

 

So ponder it for a while, if the coming Antichrist is going to do miracles and wonders powerful enough to almost... deceive Christ's own very elect, then what will it do to the rest of the world? The rest of the world will bow in false worship to that pseudo-Christ with thinking he truly is... God having come. This is why all nations and peoples will accept him, not just the orthodox Jews.

 

That distinctive warning is repeated by Paul in 2 Thess.2. Jesus made a distinction in Matt.24 between those who only say they are Christ vs. the pseudo-Christ that will actually do miracles and wonders to make it believalbe. In 2 Thess.2 Paul gave the same comparison between the one coming to sit in the temple as God working those wonders and miracles vs. the "mystery of iniquity" which represent the "many antichrists" (little antichrists who only say they are Christ). Same thing with John with how they heard Antichrist shall come, vs the many antichrists (little antichrists) that already are at work.

 

So when those in the Church focus on some Mooney, a pope, or religious/political leaders from any of the nations, etc., they're only focusing on the little antichrists distinction and not the actual Antichrist role, the pseudo-Christ.

 

Salty, where did you come up with this 'pseudo-Christos'? I looked at this word in about 6 different Greek Texts and in all of them it is:

 

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Byzantine Majority

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Alexandrian

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Hort and Westcott

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

IN an interlinear it is "cristos"

 

So NO "pseudo"

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

What is the meaning of the one "head" that received the deadly wound?

 

Different commentators have different ideas of the five fallen. Perhaps they would be  Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia and  Greece. Each of these in turn possessed the land of Israel in their empires. Today those land areas would include Syria, Iraq, Iran and others. Since this is for the end times, these nations would be these "heads" of the beast.

 

So which of these recently received a deadly wound? Of course Iraq received a deadly wound, as the "king" was put to death. All the other nations that surround Israel are becoming radical Islamic nations. I am convinced Iraq will "recover" from her deadly wound and become again a radical Muslim nation. time will tell.

 

Paul tells us that at the midpoint of the week, the man of sin will enter the Jewish temple and declare he is God. This will be the abomination. In Rev. 11:1-2, we see the man of sin with his Gentile armies entering Jerusalem. After all, before he can enter the temple in Jerusalem, he must enter Jerusalem. I believe he will arrive just 3 1/2 days before he enters the temple. Then the two witnesses will show up seconds after he arrives. They come because he came. They will testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial, and he will get 42 months of authority.

 

So he enters Jerusalem and it is written that the city will be trampled for 42 months. This tells us that the man of sin turned Beast (possesed by Satan) will STAY in Jerusalem. It will then be from Jerusalem that the MARK of the Beast will come. It will be in Jerusalem that he performs the false miracles to deceive the world. Indeed, the worse deception ever to come upon humans will come then from the city of Jerusalem, which God then will name the city "Babylon the great."

 

The great city Jerusalem, which God planned as the very center of the wisdom of God on earth - THE place to go to find God, becomes the place of the worst deception ever, straight out of hell. Is it any wonder then, that God will call Jerusalem mystery Babylon the great? It is quite likely the devil will move his seat  on earth to Jerusalem.

 

Once the mark is established there, it will spread to all the nations of the world. Of course it will be global, because Satan will give this Beast global authority. It is written that all the world wonders after the Beast. He will be a man of great charisma. Once the mark gets established around the world, there will be no place to hide. What happens next will make Hitler's holocaust seem insignificant. The devil will convince the masses that Jews and Hebrews and believers are EVERYONE's enemy and must be destroyed. All who refuse the mark must be destroyed. It will become quite like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin in 1943......impossible! This time it will be nearly worldwide. There will be few places to hide. Just before the mark is created and enforced, an ANGEL will cover with world, warning people in their own language the danger of taking the mark.

 

But that will not be enough to satisfy the Beast or the false prophet. They will build a great image, as Nebuchadnezzar did. Did you notice that Nebuchadnezzar's image was 60 cubits tall and 6 cubits wide? The Mark will be 600, 60 and 6, so the image included at least two of the numbers of the Mark. My guess is, this new image will be the same.

 

Then the Beast will force all people to worship this image, just as Nebuchadnezzar did. Millions will refuse and more millions will die.

 

Finally God in His great mercy will begin to pour out the vials of His wrath, which will STOP the Beast in his tracks, so to speak and SHORTEN those days of great tribulation.

 

The devil, being really angry now, will call the combined armies of ten nations of the world together to Israel. (This will NOT be the same ten nations of which the Beast defeated 3.) It is possible these ten nations will be from the Western leg of the great image of Daniel chapter 2. The kings of these ten nations will "throw in" with the Beast for the last "hour," joining their armies to wipe Israel off the planet. I am sure they would succeed, except for one thing: JESUS will return to earth!  The battle of Armageddon will be over almost before it begins. However, I believe Jerusalem will be sacked, many carried away as slaves, many killed. Finally near the end, Jerusalem will be burned.

 

The Beast and False prophet will be taken and thrown into the lake of fire. Is it possible this will be on day 1290? Or perhaps day 1335?

 

Mystery "Babylon the Great...the city of great deception will be defeated and destroyed, never to be seen again, but the real city of Jerusalem will be rebuild and a new temple constructed.

 

Lamad

Edited July 18, 2014 by iamlamad

[Salty]

Salty, where did you come up with this 'pseudo-Christos'? I looked at this word in about 6 different Greek Texts and in all of them it is:

 

 

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Byzantine Majority

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Alexandrian

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Hort and Westcott

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

IN an interlinear it is "cristos"

 

So NO "pseudo"

 

LAMAD

 

 

In Matthew 24:24 (KJV phrase "false Christs"), it is the Greek word 'pseudochristos'.

 

So translate that Greek word 'pseudochristos' for me. And remember, it is actually from 2 Greek words, 'pseudo' and 'Christos'.

[iamlamad]

 

Salty, where did you come up with this 'pseudo-Christos'? I looked at this word in about 6 different Greek Texts and in all of them it is:

 

 

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Byzantine Majority

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Alexandrian

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

Hort and Westcott

tote ean tiV umin eiph idou wde o cristoV h wde mh pisteushte

 

IN an interlinear it is "cristos"

 

So NO "pseudo"

 

LAMAD

 

 

In Matthew 24:24 (KJV phrase "false Christs"), it is the Greek word 'pseudochristos'.

 

So translate that Greek word 'pseudochristos' for me. And remember, it is actually from 2 Greek words, 'pseudo' and 'Christos'.

 

Sorry, I missed that verse. Yes, all Greek texts agree on this.

 

Pseudo:  lying, deceitful, false

I guess the KJV did a good job with "False" Christs.

 

Thanks

 

LAMAD

Edited July 20, 2014 by iamlamad

[Salty]

 

I'm agreeing with everything you are saying. So I'm not sure where we are in disagreement. You seem to be emphasizing that the antichrist is Jewish, something I agree with. Now nearly all the Jews in Israel came recently from other countries. Only the tiniest portion of Jews in Israel come from families that have been there for hundreds of years, most Jews in Israel have immigrated there more recently. In Israel there are American Jews, European Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Russian Jews, Kurdish Jews etc etc    The antichrist will come from one of these Jews, am I right?

 

 

To fit the prophecy, the coming pseudo-Christ must come from the house of David in order to mimic Christ.

 

I find it difficult to believe that the unbelieving Jews would anoint any other as their king in Jerusalem, and that is the role that pseudo-Christ is to play, Messiah-King. Would false Jews in control in Jerusalem lie about that, saying the Antichrist is born of the house of David? I think it's possible, just as I believe they would lie about having the true ark of the covenant also, and the temple built at the proper site on the Temple Mount.

 

I know Marilyn et al uses the title "the Assyrian" in Isaiah to mean an actual person from Assyria as the coming Antichrist, but in the OT prophets there's places where God used "the Assyrian" as a symbolic title for Satan himself (like Isa.10; Ezek.31). If I recall, Isaiah 10 also gives how the historical king of Assyria came upon Jerusalem out of the north, city by city. That might serve as a pattern for how the Antichrist comes to Jerusalem out of the north also.

 

Now if the Jews in Jerusalem agree to setting up a king not from the house of David, not of Israel, then wouldn't it be very easy for the majority of the Jews also to know that is not the true Messiah? Wouldn't that just be another historical-like pattern, like Antiochus, etc.? I haven't completely ommited that possibility, because since God has blinded many of His people until Christ returns, they would probably fall to that anyway.

 

But what about us Christians? Don't many of us know the Biblical requirement of The Lord Jesus Christ being born of the house of David? How many of us would be duped by their presenting the Antichrist as Christ born of the Gentiles?

[Spock]

Salty,

How do you believe the Jewish people will respond to this Jewish Messiah when he does his abomination of desolation thing and subsequently will put an end to the sacrifices in their newly rebuilt temple?