GWT: so morning star is Jesus or Lucifer?

[ProzacR]

Revalation 22:16

 

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give this testimony to you for the churches. I am the root and descendant of David. I am the bright morning star."

So Jesus is morning star.

 

Lets go to other place. Isaiah 14:12-15

 

12How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!

13You thought, "I'll go up to heaven and set up my throne above God's stars. I'll sit on the mountain far away in the north where the gods assemble.

14I'll go above the top of the clouds. I'll be like the Most High."

15But you've been brought down to Sheol, to the deepest part of the pit.

Oo

Well if you have doubts that this place is about devil then time to swich into King James Bible Isaiah 14 12:15:

 

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ProzacR

[Salty]

Please don't be puzzled on that brethren. In Isaiah 14 God is mocking Satan and using his own words, what Satan has claimed.

 

At Isaiah 14:4, God reveals He's speaking a 'proverb' against the king of Babylon. That means like a parable (I'll say more on that point later).

 

Isa 14:12-14
12    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13    For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
(KJV)
 

The underlined part above are Satan's own words. God is repeating what Satan has claimed he will do against Him.

 

 

In the first edition 1611 KJV, the translators put "O Day Starre" in the margin as an alternate reading for "Lucifer". They got the name "Lucifer" from the Latin translation. The actual Hebrew word does indeed mean 'morning star'. I'm sure they used the name Lucifer to make sure the reader was not confused as to whom God was really pointing to there in that section of Isaiah 14.

 

But Lucifer, i.e., Satan, is NOT The Morning Star. It's important to pick up the subject context God began that with starting at Isaiah 14:4. He's using the king of Babylon title as a symbolic title for Satan, just like He did in Ezekiel 28 with the titles of "prince of Tyrus" and "king of Tyrus".

 

It's involving how Satan sinned against God in the beginning, and still wants to be God. If you understand Ezekiel 28 as a proverb with God doing the same kind of parable thing there with symbolically pointing to Satan as the "anointed cherub that covereth", and that God originally created him perfect in his ways before he rebelled, then it's the same matter here in this section of Isaiah 14. Satan coveted God's Throne for himself, wanting to be God, when it was Satan's original job to guard God's Throne.

 

Since the title Morning Star is another title for our Lord Jesus Christ per Rev.22, we should well know Satan is not That Morning Star. But Satan wants to be, and there's the rub.

 

In a similar fashion, God uses the same kind of title association in Deut.32:31...

Deut 32:31
31    For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
(KJV)
 

Little case "rock" compared to upper case "Rock"; what's that mean? Satan is that little "rock", God is our "Rock". By that is meant like that Isaiah 14 Scripture, Satan WANTS to be God, and worshipped as God. That means as our Lord Jesus Christ too, for He is God The Son.

 

Deeper:

 

Why would our Heavenly Father say in Isaiah 14:4 to take up a proverb about the king of Babylon, and then use that in pointing to Satan? The king of Babylon during Jeremiah's day was Nebuchadnezzar, but clearly there in Isaiah 14 that's not who God was speaking about, even though ole' Neb did want to be God, and worshipped as God also. Use your thinking caps brethren, because isn't there still yet an end time Babylon to occur per our Lord's Book of Revelation? Yes. Revelation does not mention a king of Babylon, but it does point directly to a king, a beast king for the last days, and in association with a beast kingdom and a harlot city called... "Babylon" (Rev.17-18).

 

If you've understand that, along with the isaiah 14 Scripture about the "king of Babylon" title applied to Satan by our Heavenly Father in that section of verses, then you ought to be able to fathom what Satan wants to also do for the very end of this world. Did any of Christ's Apostles point to this same idea in Isaiah 14 of Satan wanting to be God, and worshipped as God by the congregation? Well, take another look at what Apostle Paul covered in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the one coming to sit in the temple of God to proclaim himself as God, and over anything called God or that is worshiped, and in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus".

[ProzacR]

Thanks for answers.

 

Is it not strange that Jesus title 'morning star' is used in some translations and 'Lucifer' in others?

My native language translation actually contains 'Ausrinis' (~= Morningman) there.

If you check: http://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm you can also find shining one and Day Star. So far 4 options instead of Lucifer if you do not like him in your Bible and want something else instead.

And I do not think there is other place with Lucifer name.

[Jzyehoshua]

Stars is a reference at times to angels:

 

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

Morning stars is a phrase referenced elsewhere also:

 

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
 28 And I will give him the morning star.

[other one]

My name is sam......   I once attended a Xerox training class of 22 that had 18 sam's in it  (quite an experience).

 

morning star is the planet Venus, but this has been used to speak of more than one person/entity.     It could be speaking of both Jesus and Lucifer depending on context.   Kind of like that class.......   one had to figure out which Sam one was addressing.

[Fez]

My name is sam......   I once attended a Xerox training class of 22 that had 18 sam's in it  (quite an experience).

 

morning star is the planet Venus, but this has been used to speak of more than one person/entity.     It could be speaking of both Jesus and Lucifer depending on context.   Kind of like that class.......   one had to figure out which Sam one was addressing.

 

My name is sam......   I once attended a Xerox training class of 22 that had 18 sam's in it  (quite an experience).

 

morning star is the planet Venus, but this has been used to speak of more than one person/entity.     It could be speaking of both Jesus and Lucifer depending on context.   Kind of like that class.......   one had to figure out which Sam one was addressing.

Xerox training? Were you all carbon copies? 

[other one]

 

My name is sam......   I once attended a Xerox training class of 22 that had 18 sam's in it  (quite an experience).

 

morning star is the planet Venus, but this has been used to speak of more than one person/entity.     It could be speaking of both Jesus and Lucifer depending on context.   Kind of like that class.......   one had to figure out which Sam one was addressing.

 

My name is sam......   I once attended a Xerox training class of 22 that had 18 sam's in it  (quite an experience).

 

morning star is the planet Venus, but this has been used to speak of more than one person/entity.     It could be speaking of both Jesus and Lucifer depending on context.   Kind of like that class.......   one had to figure out which Sam one was addressing.

Xerox training? Were you all carbon copies? 

 

that was one of the thought processes.........      people would say that someone left the printer unattended last night or last week.

 

It really was an interesting couple of weeks though.....   made some good long distance work friends that trip.

[Tropicalbound]

Please don't be puzzled on that brethren. In Isaiah 14 God is mocking Satan and using his own words, what Satan has claimed.

 

At Isaiah 14:4, God reveals He's speaking a 'proverb' against the king of Babylon. That means like a parable (I'll say more on that point later).

 

Very good, Salty!!!  That was perhaps the most eloquent explanation I have heard yet.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Tropicalbound

[OneLight]

Translations loose the original meaning in many places by choosing words they believe are the best choice for the verse. 
 
For Revelation 22:16, the Greek reads:
 

ho astEr ho lampros kai orthrinos

"The gleamer the shining and early one" or "the star the resplendent and early one"

Those who translated the KJV came up with "the bright and morning star".

I suggest everyone to examine what is written from the original to what we read in our translations. You will find a deeper understanding and less confusion by doing so.

[other one]

Translations loose the original meaning in many places by choosing words they believe are the best choice for the verse. 

 

For Revelation 22:16, the Greek reads:

 

ho astEr ho lampros kai orthrinos

"The gleamer the shining and early one" or "the star the resplendent and early one"

Those who translated the KJV came up with "the bright and morning star".

I suggest everyone to examine what is written from the original to what we read in our translations. You will find a deeper understanding and less confusion by doing so.

Amen to that......   and to Bible Soft for thier software.