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Isaiah 47: is America this present age's Babylon?


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Salty

 

Are you confused too? I'm the one being attacked here for revealing how Christ used Babylon as a symbol for Jerusalem in a false worship state in His Book of Revelation, and I compared it to how our Heavenly Father did that kind of association for Jerusalem and her people in a fallen away state per the OT prophets.

 

 

The problem with this, is you seem to forget when ever Israel was in a fallen state, God forgave her as opposed to the Great Harlot of Revelation 17-18, of which it says, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all" (Rev. 18:21)

 

Examples

Isaiah 1:21-26, Jerusalem was faithful in the beginning (1:21), then became a harlot (same verse), and then at the end is healed, forgiven, and restored (1:26).

 Jeremiah 2:13-3:25, Israel was once faithful (2:17) then turned to harlotry (2:20) as a wife departing from her husband (3:20) but is promised restoration in the end if they repent (3:14-18).

Ezekiel 16, God entered into Covenant with Jerusalem (16:8), but Jerusalem played the harlot (16:15) and yet is finally restored for the sake of the Covenant (16:60-62).

 Hosea 2, speaking of the house of Israel, we find that it was once faithful (2:14-15), that it then played the harlot (2:5), and that it will be restored in the end (2:19-23).

 

Great Babylon IS NOT forgiven 

 

Rev.11:8 verse is even pointing to Jerusalem simply because of the Sodom and Egypt symbols used for it in that verse. But by doing that they also have to deny that Christ Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem. Our Lord Jesus showed He was pointing to Jerusalem in Rev.11:8 so we could not... deny His use of those symbols of Sodom and Egypt as spiritual symbols. Maybe He knew in these last days some would try to deny anything negative pointing to Jerusalem in the last days, because it's obvious some have a problem with that Revelation Scripture about the "great city".

 

 

No people just have a problem with false teachings especially ones that are anti-semtic

 

Great City

 

"Great City"  generic name. For instance, Nineveh is called a great city in the book of Jonah (Jonah 1:2). In earlier times still other cities were called great (see Genesis 10:12, Joshua 10:2). I don’t see how such a designation, which could so easily apply to any great city under discussion, can provide you much support for your Jerusalem =babylon 

 

The great city of Revelation 11:8 is not the same great city found in Revelation 17-18. Revelation 11:8 speaks of the great city where the Lord was crucified, while in contrast Revelation 17:18 is speaking of the great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah

 

Many cities and nations other than Jerusalem are also compared to Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

Example  Zephaniah 2:9: "‘Therefore, as I live,’ declares the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, ‘Surely Moab will be like Sodom, and the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah . . 

Matthew 11:23-24, Jesus said it will be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgment than it will be for Capernaum.

Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11, and Luke 10:12, we see that indeed any place that does not receive the messengers of Christ will find themselves in even worse shape in the judgment than Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

Often in the Old Testament faithless Jerusalem is called a harlot, but we can see from Isaiah 23:15 and Nahum 3:4 that Tyre and Nineveh were also given that designation. Thus, the fact that Mystery Babylon is called a harlot is not conclusive proof that Mystery Babylon was a code name for Jerusalem.

 

The fatal flaw by Salty and iamlamad

 

Jerusalem will be called mystery "Babylon the Great," but ONLY while the Beast is in power and deceiving the entire world from there

 

 

In other words by this deception Babylon has sovereignty over all the nations they get this flawed scriptural interpretation from 

Revelation 17:18 "The woman whom you saw represents the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth."

 

Here is the flaw to the above error 

 

Jerusalem was to be over the nations only if she was obedient to the Covenant.

 

God said that He would set Israel above all the nations if she was obedient to do all the things written in the law (Deuteronomy 28:1, 9-10, 13-14, 7:14). Israel got into the land without this perfect obedience on the basis of a prior Covenant God had made with Abraham; but as we see from verse 1, she would not be placed "above the nations" unless she was first obedient. The Lord would establish Israel as a holy people to Himself if they would keep His commandments (verse 9); He would make Israel the head and not the tail if they would carefully do His commandments, not turning aside from any of His words (verses 13-14).
 
If Jerusalem (Israel) did "reign" over the nations, then she must have been completely obedient to her Covenant with God, since that is the only way she could obtain the "above-the-nations" status. If, however, Israel was not obedient to God (and she never completely was) then she never did qualify for the "above-the-nations" status in the first place.
 
Deuteronomy 28:1 does not say that Israel would have her position above all nations taken away if she were not obedient; it says that unless she was completely obedient, she would never obtain this position in the first place. We find our selves with this dilemma: Jerusalem was either obedient to God, in which case she could not have been Babylon the Great Harlot, or she was disobedient to God, in which case she could not have been the Babylon which reigned over the kings of the earth. Either way, Jerusalem could not be Babylon as described in Revelation 17.

 

Conclusion

 

The Jerusalem = Babylon theory offers no biblical value, nor can supporters of this theory offer any biblical evidence to support such a theory  and is further compounded by the fact if their theory is challenged we "deny that Christ Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem", yet supporters of this theory are further helping the spread of anti-semtisim and further accuse our very God of being anti-semitic and acting in a betray to his people.

 

Jerusalem = Babylon theory is a satanic theory

 

I agree, but the other problem is people call all those who disagree confused and then pronounce so called judgement upon them if they refuse to comply.  

 

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; they shall prosper them that love thee.

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The problem with this, is you seem to forget when ever Israel was in a fallen state, God forgave her as opposed to the Great Harlot of Revelation 17-18, of which it says, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all" (Rev. 18:21)

 

 

Thing is, when you speak of how Babylon is used in Revelation, to you it's geographical. But that's not how Christ used it in Revelation. He instead used it as a 'symbol', like the symbols of Sodom and Egypt in Rev.11:8 to point to Jerusalem in a fallen state. What symbolic Babylon represents is what will be utterly destroyed forever at His coming involving the Antichrist's false idol worship there in Jerusalem, and it will include destruction of the new temple the Jews build in our day for the Antichrist to sit in. Jesus won't have any use for that man-made temple built by the Jews in our near future after Antichrist has sit in it exalting himself as God.

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The problem with this, is you seem to forget when ever Israel was in a fallen state, God forgave her as opposed to the Great Harlot of Revelation 17-18, of which it says, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all" (Rev. 18:21)

 

 

Thing is, when you speak of how Babylon is used in Revelation, to you it's geographical. But that's not how Christ used it in Revelation. He instead used it as a 'symbol', like the symbols of Sodom and Egypt in Rev.11:8 to point to Jerusalem in a fallen state. What symbolic Babylon represents is what will be utterly destroyed forever at His coming involving the Antichrist's false idol worship there in Jerusalem, and it will include destruction of the new temple the Jews build in our day for the Antichrist to sit in. Jesus won't have any use for that man-made temple built by the Jews in our near future after Antichrist has sit in it exalting himself as God.

 

Yet

 

Where Christ walks, that is Holy Ground,  Where He sits, that is Holy.  Christ can make the unholy, Holy in one day, in one moment of time.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Thing is, when you speak of how Babylon is used in Revelation, to you it's geographical. But that's not how Christ used it in Revelation. He instead used it as a 'symbol', like the symbols of Sodom and Egypt in Rev.11:8 to point to Jerusalem in a fallen state. What symbolic Babylon represents is what will be utterly destroyed forever at His coming involving the Antichrist's false idol worship there in Jerusalem, and it will include destruction of the new temple the Jews build in our day for the Antichrist to sit in. Jesus won't have any use for that man-made temple built by the Jews in our near future after Antichrist has sit in it exalting himself as God.

 

Yet

 

Where Christ walks, that is Holy Ground,  Where He sits, that is Holy.  Christ can make the unholy, Holy in one day, in one moment of time.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

See Zechariah where we are shown Christ will build the temple, not the Jews nor anyone else. That means any built temple prior to His coming will not be the temple He will build. Per the 1st - 2nd century Church fathers, they said the coming Antichrist will build the temple in Jerusalem that he comes to sit in prior to our Lord Jesus' coming. I believe that too.

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Thing is, when you speak of how Babylon is used in Revelation, to you it's geographical. But that's not how Christ used it in Revelation. He instead used it as a 'symbol', like the symbols of Sodom and Egypt in Rev.11:8 to point to Jerusalem in a fallen state. What symbolic Babylon represents is what will be utterly destroyed forever at His coming involving the Antichrist's false idol worship there in Jerusalem, and it will include destruction of the new temple the Jews build in our day for the Antichrist to sit in. Jesus won't have any use for that man-made temple built by the Jews in our near future after Antichrist has sit in it exalting himself as God.

 

 

Again Salty I've provided you scripture that Israel cannot Rule over many nations in a sinful state, this is due to Deuteronomy 28:1, 9-10, 13-14, 7:14 which is crucial to your theory. That alone blows your theory open...which you ignore

 

Biblical evidence for a literal interpretation placing Babylon geographically in Iraq

 

The fact OT passages dealing with the destruction of Babylon compare and contrast her with the city of Jerusalem. 

 

  • If Babylon in the book of Revelation is to denote something other than the literal city, we should expect to see significant differences in what is said concerning her. But we do not. Both OT and NT speak in concert on the matter of Babylon. It would seem these passages are in agreement concerning their subject—the literal city on the Euphrates:
  • The imagery of many waters (Rev. Rev. 17:1+, Rev. 17:15+) is reminiscent of the waters of Babylon (Ps. Ps. 137:1; Jer. Jer. 51:13)
  • The boast of Babylon, “I sit as queen and am no widow, and will not see sorrow” (Rev. Rev. 18:7+) echoes that of ancient Babylon (Isa. Isa. 47:7-9).
  • John also employs imagery from the Tower of Babel. When Revelation Rev. 18:5+ says, “her sins have piled up as high as heaven,” the allusion is possibly to the use of bricks in building the Tower of Babel.
  • Revelation Rev. 17:1+-Rev. 18:1+ also repeatedly draws imagery from the description of Babylon and its destruction given in Jeremiah Jer. 50:1-Jer. 51:1. For example, both passages describe Babylon as holding a golden cup (Jer. Jer. 51:7; Rev. Rev. 17:3-4+; Rev. 18:6+), dwelling on many waters (Jer. Jer. 51:13; Rev. Rev. 17:1+), involved with the nations (Jer. Jer. 51:7; Rev. Rev. 17:2+), and having the same name (Jer. Jer. 50:1; Rev. Rev. 17:5+; Rev. 18:10+). Moreover, both passages illustrate Babylon’s destruction the same way (Jer. Jer. 51:63-64; Rev. Rev. 18:21+) and depict Babylon’s destruction as sudden (Jer. Jer. 51:8; Rev. Rev. 18:8+), caused by fire (Jer. Jer. 51:30; Rev. Rev. 17:16+; Rev. 18:8+), final (Jer. Jer. 50:39; Rev. Rev. 18:21+), and deserved (Jer. Jer. 51:63-64; Rev. Rev. 18:21+). Furthermore, both passages describe the response to Babylon’s destruction in terms of God’s people fleeing (Jer. Jer. 51:6, Jer. 51:45; Rev. Rev. 18:4+) and heaven rejoicing (Jer. Jer. 51:48; Rev. Rev. 18:20+). 

Six times (significant number!) is ‘Babylon’ referred to in the Apocalypse, and nowhere is there a hint that the name is not to be understood literally.

 

Another reason in favor of taking Babylon as a literal city rather than a symbol or figure is found in its representation as the Harlot: “The Whore represents a City. . . . Babylon, must therefore be understood literally, otherwise we should have the anomaly of a figure representing a figure.

 

Further evidence for taking Babylon as the literal city is found in the way in which her destruction is illustrated by an angel in the book of Revelation. The angel takes up a stone and throws it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore” (Rev. Rev. 18:21+). This is an intentional allusion to a similar prophetic enactment found in Jeremiah:
The word which Jeremiah the prophet commanded Seraiah the son of Neriah, the son of Mahseiah, when he went with Zedekiah the king of Judah to Babylon in the fourth year of his reign. And Seraiah was the quartermaster. So Jeremiah wrote in a book all the evil that would come upon Babylon, all these words that are written against Babylon. And Jeremiah said to Seraiah, “When you arrive in Babylon and see it, and read all these words, then you shall say, ‘O LORD, You have spoken against this place to cut it off, so that none shall remain in it, neither man nor beast, but it shall be desolate forever.’ Now it shall be, when you have finished reading this book, that you shall tie a stone to it and throw it out into the Euphrates. Then you shall say, ‘Thus Babylon shall sink and not rise from the catastrophe that I will bring upon her. And they shall be weary.’ ” Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.
 
Here's where your history fails you
 
Jeremiah sent Seraiah with Zedekiah to Babylon in order to make his pronouncement of judgment. This is similar to how Jonah was sent to Nineveh. In both cases, the pronounced judgment concerned a specific geographic location which God would judge. Morever, the pronouncement by Seraiah was that of a permanent destruction where neither man nor beast would ever remain there. As O proved to you, the historical record of literal Babylon does not match the seriousness of this prophecy. The question then Salty which you must answer is why did Jeremiah go to the trouble of instructing Seraiah to make such a pronouncement at the specific geographical location of literal Babylon if the fulfillment is to be found somewhere else? 

 

 

All that and not even ONE reference to the Rev.11:8 Scripture where Jerusalem is being compared spiritually as the "great city" to Sodom and Egypt!

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America as present day Babylon.  NO, For Babylon is referred to as a great city 5 times in Rev 18.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Salty

 

All that and not even ONE reference to the Rev.11:8 Scripture where Jerusalem is being compared spiritually as the "great city" to Sodom and Egypt!

 

 

I think i've been through this a hundred times with you, the reason there is not ONE reference to Rev 11.8 becuase Jerusalem is not being compared to Babylon its been compared to Sodom and Egypt.

 

Yet you prove my point, because you seem to refuse to admit God's Word can use symbolic references like that to point to Jerusalem in a false worship state. We've been over the hard evidence of that in Ezekiel 16 also, but you steer clear of that pretty much too.

 

The geographical city of Babylon has been destroyed, and it's still lay waste today in modern Iraq. According to the Revelation descriptions of Babylon, it would have to be resurrected to its former glory as one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. That's not going to happen.

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Salty

 

Yet you prove my point, because you seem to refuse to admit God's Word can use symbolic references like that to point to Jerusalem in a false worship state

 

 

How do I prove your point? on the one hand i recognise God uses symbolic references to Jerusalem and yet I some how refuse to admit God uses symbolic references to Jerusalem? It sounds like your point is a bit schizo and needs to make its mind up.

 

Yes God uses Egypt and Sodom to symbolically refer to Jerusalem however I dont see God using Babylon in that scripture to refer to Jerusalem....inother words Babylon is not mentioned its not even being referred to....Can you show me where it says Babylon?

 

We've been over the hard evidence of that in Ezekiel 16 also, but you steer clear of that pretty much too.

 

 

and yet the word "MOTHER" is not being used... can you show me the word MOTHER in Ezekiel 16? It compares Jerusalem as a wife to GOD who committed adultry !!!! Tell me something the practice of sacrificing children to gods did that originate from Jerusalem? Is Jerusalem the originator of such practices or did they borrow it from other cultures?

 

See the only thing Jerusalem is the MOTHER of or ORIGINATOR of is Judaism and Christianity.

 

The geographical city of Babylon has been destroyed, and it's still lay waste today in modern Iraq. 

 

 

Stop right there, we have been through the history of Babylon which I proved to you, babylon declined over a period of time, this decline does not fit with any prophecy of destruction that is meant for Babylon, therefore the prohpecies concerning the DESTRUCTION of Babylon is still to be fullfilled.

 

 

According to the Revelation descriptions of Babylon, it would have to be resurrected to its former glory as one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. That's not going to happen.

 

 

and yet Rev 13.3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

 

Now Babylon seems dead doesnt it? like you said it ant going to happen ( Ok prophet, if you say so) but if it did happen then that would be biblical wouldnt it?

 

You're all over the map. I thought we were talking about the idea of how God has used symbolic titles of pagan cities or nations to point to Jerusalem when fallen away from Him, and how that can also apply to the name Babylon being used for that "great city" of Revelation also. He does that in the Rev.11:8 verse emphatically, calling Jerusalem by the names of Sodom and Egypt to show its fallen state against Him in that time of the two witnesses.

 

Our Heavenly Father doesn't only do this name association thing in one Scripture. It's in many OT Scriptures, even this one about the house of Judah (at Jerusalem) and the house of Israel (at Samaria)...

 

Ezekiel 23

23 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.

Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.

Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.

10 These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.

11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

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Salty

 

and yet with ALL the NAME ASSOCIATIONS you still cant provide me evidence where God called Jerusalem Babylon, it would appear God calls Jerusalem everything but Babylon.

 

Oh and since you brought up Ezekiel 23 perhaps pay attention on this line of verse

8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

 

Look at that Jerusalem gets her whoredoms from Egypt....mmmm interesting clearly Jerusalem cant be a Mother of whores if she gets her whoredoms from Egypt?

 

So Rev.11:8 calling Jerusalem spiritually by the name "Egypt" doesn't mean anything either? Might want to check your Bible history about God's anger when Israel relied on Egypt for help instead of Him. Where did the children of Israel get the idea to make a gold calf in false worship while Moses was upon Mt. Sinai? They used the gold and such they brought out of Egypt for that idol.

 

Exodus 32

And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

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 Where did the children of Israel get the idea to make a gold calf in false worship while Moses was upon Mt. Sinai? They used the gold and such they brought out of Egypt for that idol.

 

Exodus 32

And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

 

when Aaron was approached as to what happened, here is what he said:

 

Ex 32:23-24

23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

KJV

 

 

 

I would think that since God didn't seem to confront him about making the calf.    So in my mind I can see him putting the gold into the fire and then taking his tools to put adding touches on the calf.

 

So to answer your question I'd say that it was something from the dark side at work...

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