Watching for Jesus Posted November 16, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2014 Hi Enoch2021 You say my timeline is untenable. I say it is. We disagree. Yes the war with the saints will be the antichrist persecuting the Christians. Yes, Revelation 6:14-16 is speaking of the time of the Battle of Armageddon. Revelation, Chapter 6 is an overview of the 70th week of Daniel. The first six seals (shown in verses 1-12) will be opened during the first 6 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. There is a small gap in time between verse 12 and verse 13, The 7th seal will be opened after the 6th, but it is not shown to John in Revelation, Chapter 6. The stars of heaven falling (shown in verse 13) are the first six trumpet and vial judgments. The trumpets and the vials are concurrent events. The 7th trumpet will sound (this is when Jesus will come) after the stars of heaven fall (the first six trumpets and vials). Verse 14 is the 7th vial being poured out, just after the 7th trumpet (which is not shown to John at this time). Revelation 6:14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Revelation 16:17. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Verses 15-17 show the unbelievers just after Christ has come. Jesus comes on the day of the Lord at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. The day of the Lord is the great day of His wrath. Jesus will fight the Battle of Armageddon at that time (when the 7th vial is poured out). The return on the white horses is not to fight the Battle of Armageddon. That return is after the marriage of the Lamb. Jesus will come on the day of the Lord to gather His elect at the 7th trumpet and fight the Battle of Armageddon as the 7th vial is poured out. After the day of the Lord has ended, Jesus will return to heaven with His elect (the bride to be) for the mariage of the Lamb. The events of Revelation, Chapter 19 are after the 7th vial has been poured out. Jesus will return to the earth with His wife after the marriage to start His 1,000 year reign on the earth. I know everything that I am saying sounds crazy to you, but I believe that it is what the Holy Spirit has shown me. I also know that the things that I am saying are totally different from what anyone else has ever said. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 16, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 16, 2014 ======================================================================================================================= You say my timeline is untenable. I say it is. We disagree. No. I showed you specifically how it is Untenable. Big Difference. And as I said in our last discussion (that you didn't reply to) that also applies here, Agree and Disagree have nothing to do with it. Yes the war with the saints will be the antichrist persecuting the Christians. Nope it is not "The Church"/Born Again Christians. And I showed you specifically via Scripture that this is also Untenable. Yes, Revelation 6:14-16 is speaking of the time of the Battle of Armageddon. This is very easy to deconstruct by just a cursory reading of the text. So all of your Extrapolations from these errors are...Fallacious. You cannot Objectively defend these positions. So then your only recourse is to go Subjective----- "We disagree." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watching for Jesus Posted November 16, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) - Edited July 28, 2016 by Watching for Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted November 16, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2014 Hi Last Daze I believe the 1,335th day is the day of the Lord. Jeff Same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watching for Jesus Posted November 16, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 155 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 133 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2014 Hi Last Daze. Do you also agree that the day of the Lord is one 24 hour day? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted November 16, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2014 Hi Last Daze. Do you also agree that the day of the Lord is one 24 hour day? Jeff Yes, that's the way I see it. It begins with the seventh trumpet and ends with the seventh bowl. The exact duration I'm not certain about but I see it happening within a 24 hour period, not necessarily being a full 24 hours in length though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2014 This is based on the events and times given in the Book of Daniel, and in our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse, and His Revelation, and portions of the OT Books of God's prophets. The * marker is to show what events occur on the day of Christ's coming known as "the day of the Lord". The (p.) stands for a 'period' of time. [---------------------------------------Dan.9:27 "one week"-------------------------------------] [---p.1---------][----p.2----------][--- p.3---------][----------------------p.4----------------------][*] [--220 days--][--1040 days---][-AOD setup-][-was 1260 days, now "five months"-][*] p.1 & p.2 = 1260 days of the first half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (one seven). The period of a 'week' per the 70 weeks prophecy equals a 7 year period per the historical event timing of the previously fulfilled 69 weeks. The final 70th yet unfulfilled week is this "one week" of Dan.9:27. p.1 = prep time for the daily sacrifices and building of the new temple in Jerusalem. p.2 = the time of the re-instituted daily sacrifice and temple worship; the time of those who worship in the temple in Rev.11:1. p.3 is the midst of the "one week" (7 years) when the Antichrist ends the daily sacrifice and substitutes with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" in the temple, demanding all to bow in worship. p. 4 is the "great tribulation" timing, the 42 month reign of the "dragon" of Rev.13, the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city per Rev.11:2. It's the timing of the locust working with the pseudo-Christ setup in Jerusalem as king of the world, i.e., the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing. Christ shortened this 1260 days to "five months" per the time of the stinging by the locusts of Rev.9 and His declaration in Matt.24:21-26. The locusts are told to not hurt any green thing, and cannot kill anyone not sealed with God's sealing. It is the time of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 1260 days before they are killed by the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit. (*) - "the day of the Lord" = day of Christ's second coming to gather His Church. Day of the battle of Armageddon and Gog/Magog, His coming destroying the Antichrist's armies that will attempt to come upon Israel on that last day of this world. It is the time of God's consuming fire per 2 Pet.3:10 and the OT prophets, burning man's works off the surface of the earth like how the flood of Noah's day destroyed man's works then. It is the day when those still alive on earth, including Christ's Church, will be changed at the "twinkling of an eye" to the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15 on the "last trump". It is the time of the 7th trumpet - 3rd final woe. It is the time of the 6th seal with Christ's enemies seeking to hide themselves, wishing for the hills and mountains to fall on them (shame). It is the time when those of Christ's Church did not wait on Him will appear in shame loosing their "garments". It is the time when Jesus will shut the door on the five foolish virgins. It is the first day of Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. Does that help anyone? How could this "help" anyone when it is only imagination and wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2014 Therefore I have NO DOUBT that the entire 70th week is still ahead of us. I have a GREAT advantage, for God Himself instructed me in this exact area. If God believes it is, that is good enough for me. LAMAD For the purpose of bible discussions its better to show your evidence from the bible. Even Jesus used this scriptural approach. So I don't find your last point compelling whatsoever, despite being sure that in other areas God would communicate with you directly. Paul used his own personal testimony, even before kings. I certainly will not deny what really happened. God spoke to me about this very subject and left no doubt that in HIS mind, the entire 70th week is still future, being "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation. LAMAD Well LAMAD your "clear markings" are subject to interpretation. The period of the last few trumpets more logically overlaps the tribulation than precedes the tribulation. 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” The kingdom of Jesus occurs at the second coming, and so the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 6th trumpet (the two witnesses) occurs just before the second coming. This is the most logical way of seeing things, so I just cannot agree with you on a purely biblical basis. Revelation just does not mention an earlier 3.5 year period, it only mentions the final 3.5 year period. This is just man's imagination and reasoning. The truth is, Adam's lease runs out at the 7th trumpet. Since Satan usurped Adam's lease, suddenly Satan is found with no legal hold to anything on earth, so is cast down from his high places. And since Adam's lease (the scroll in chapter 5) has run out, the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. This in NO WAY is saying that Jesus comes to earth to take physical possession. He does NOT. What you have missed is that God has His WORD out, and CANNOT lie: the Beast will be given 42 months of authority. Jesus waits in heaven for those 42 months. Therefore the 7th trumpet remains exactly what the Holy Spirit chose: the mark the exact midpoint. Did you realize, for your theory, you must REARRANGE the book? Neither you nor anyone else has that authority. It is in the order these things will happen when it is time. PROOF: Daniel 9:27 tells us the week will be divided by some event that causes the daily sacrifices to cease. Paul tells us that the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That will immediately stop the daily sacrifices. And Jesus told those in judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. We find that fleeing begins in 12:2, just a second or two after the 7th trumpet has sounded. They are obeying what Jesus told them: FLEE. In your theory, they would be fleeing Jesus 2nd coming at the end of the week! The kingdom of Jesus occurs at the second coming, and so the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 6th trumpet (the two witnesses) occurs just before the second coming You have several errors in just this one sentence. The kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus right where John tells us: at the MIDPOINT of the week. Your theory is just that: a theory that does not line up with the word of God. There is no coming at the 7th trumpet. That part is MYTH. Finally, the two witnesses show up AFTER the 6th trumpet has finished. In truth, the two witnesses will show up just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week. By this time the 6th trumpet event will be history - come and gone. God knows what is about to happen and will have witnesses there to testify to what they see. I don't see your theory as logical at all. No theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be logical. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. Added later: There is another point to consider: God will destroy this planet with fire; as Paul said, our works will be tried by fire. If Satan was still God of this world during the last half of the 70th week, God would have no authority to destroy the world. He could not do it! Being God, He WOULD NOT do it. No, the kingdoms of the world MUST transfer from Satan to God before God would have the authority to destroy it. If He did, He would have to cease being God that CANNOT lie. LAMAD LAMAD, I believe you are the one re-arranging the chronology of Revelation. Rev 11 is very clear that the kingdom of this world becomes Christ's at the 7th trumpet, and yet you say the bowls of wrath occur after that? This would place the bowls of wrath into Christ's reign which is nonsensical. Only in your imagination. God has promised the world that He would give the Antichrist 42 months of authority. That count begins at the midpoint of the week, as shown in chapter 13. OF COURSE the bowls of wrath occur after chapter 13. So those the days of great tribulation occur after chapter 13. In fact, the Beast does not set up his image and mark until AFTER chapter 14. Then the worship of the Beast and the mark are enforced and the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will take place, starting in chapter 15. God will then use the vials and plagues to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. This is the exact order John has laid it out. It cannot be and will not be changed. The truth is, the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Christ as the midpoint, but He does not return to take possession until AFTER the 70th week has finished, as shown in Rev. 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2014 Hi Enoch2021 You say my timeline is untenable. I say it is. We disagree. Yes the war with the saints will be the antichrist persecuting the Christians. Yes, Revelation 6:14-16 is speaking of the time of the Battle of Armageddon. Revelation, Chapter 6 is an overview of the 70th week of Daniel. The first six seals (shown in verses 1-12) will be opened during the first 6 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. There is a small gap in time between verse 12 and verse 13, The 7th seal will be opened after the 6th, but it is not shown to John in Revelation, Chapter 6. The stars of heaven falling (shown in verse 13) are the first six trumpet and vial judgments. The trumpets and the vials are concurrent events. The 7th trumpet will sound (this is when Jesus will come) after the stars of heaven fall (the first six trumpets and vials). Verse 14 is the 7th vial being poured out, just after the 7th trumpet (which is not shown to John at this time). Revelation 6:14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Revelation 16:17. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Verses 15-17 show the unbelievers just after Christ has come. Jesus comes on the day of the Lord at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. The day of the Lord is the great day of His wrath. Jesus will fight the Battle of Armageddon at that time (when the 7th vial is poured out). The return on the white horses is not to fight the Battle of Armageddon. That return is after the marriage of the Lamb. Jesus will come on the day of the Lord to gather His elect at the 7th trumpet and fight the Battle of Armageddon as the 7th vial is poured out. After the day of the Lord has ended, Jesus will return to heaven with His elect (the bride to be) for the mariage of the Lamb. The events of Revelation, Chapter 19 are after the 7th vial has been poured out. Jesus will return to the earth with His wife after the marriage to start His 1,000 year reign on the earth. I know everything that I am saying sounds crazy to you, but I believe that it is what the Holy Spirit has shown me. I also know that the things that I am saying are totally different from what anyone else has ever said. Jeff Jeff, I don't think your theories here are bibilical. It is only imagination that verses 14-16 are the battle of ARmageddon. They are hiding because they have just lived through the greatest earthquake to hit the planet and they KNOW it is the opening and first salvo of the Day of the Lord. That is why they are scared and wanting to die. It will be the first WORLDWIDE earthquake. It will come over 7 years before Jesus' coming in chapter 19 and the battle of Armageddon. Yes the war with the saints will be the antichrist persecuting the Christians. You are right on here. This war will begin in Rev. 15. The first six seals (shown in verses 1-12) will be opened during the first 6 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. There is a small gap in time between verse 12 and verse 13, You are pulling these seals out of CONTEXT, so of course the timing is way off. What is the context? It is the vision of the throne room. But not the throne room in 95 AD when John was seeing the vision. No, it was a vision of the throne room FROM THE PAST. John was looking into the throne room during the time Jesus' body was in the tomb and HE was in Hades. This is proven over and over by these two chapters. First, John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Next, in the search for one worthy, NO MAN WAS FOUND. That is because at that moment in time, Jesus has not yet risen from the dead. Then, in chapter 4 we see the Holy Spirit is STILL THERE in the throne room, when Jesus said as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. Then, in chapter 5 another search is started while John was weeping much, and immediately Jesus was found worthy - because He has just risen from the dead. And IMMEDIATELY He ascended, the Holy Spirit was sent down. All this times the TIMING to 32 AD. The moment Jesus entered the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him, for He had not yet ascended,He went IMMEDIATELY to get the book from the right hand of the FAther and began immediately to breaking or opening the seals. He broke the first 5 then, around 32 AD. Finally, at the fifth seal, we read of a time of waiting. WE are STILL WAITING on the 6th seal which opens the Day of the Lord. By the way, the 7th seal CANNOT be opened and WILL NOT be opened until first the 144,000 are sealed and the church is seen in heaven after Paul's rapture. The trumpets and the vials are concurrent events. This is a theory from human reasoning that cannot be proven by scripture. Indeed, scripture shows it otherwise. The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week, and the vials are not poured out until chapter 16, some time later. THERE IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. People have tried for years to make this a coming - and they all have failed. There is not one hint of Jesus coming at that time. There is concrete proof that He comes in chapter 19, 3 1/2 plus years AFTER the 7th trumpet. Look, you are trying to REARRANGE the book. NO ONE has that authority! Next, it is correct in the order it is written in and NEEDS NO CHANGING! Do you imagine you know more than the Holy Spirit that inspired John to write? This book is a REVEALING, not a hiding. God was not trying to make this difficult - like a puzzle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted November 24, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Only in your imagination. God has promised the world that He would give the Antichrist 42 months of authority. That count begins at the midpoint of the week, as shown in chapter 13. OF COURSE the bowls of wrath occur after chapter 13. So those the days of great tribulation occur after chapter 13. In fact, the Beast does not set up his image and mark until AFTER chapter 14. Then the worship of the Beast and the mark are enforced and the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will take place, starting in chapter 15. God will then use the vials and plagues to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. This is the exact order John has laid it out. It cannot be and will not be changed. The truth is, the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Christ as the midpoint, but He does not return to take possession until AFTER the 70th week has finished, as shown in Rev. 19. Man's imagination and reasoning? I reasoned from the scriptures which you have not dealt with in a reasonable manner. This idea of yours that there is a transfer of the kingdoms to Jesus but at that time Jesus does not actually take possession of them is a weak response, and you have given no further scriptural backing. Why would you weaken the clarity of the scriptures with some made up philosophy? Rev 11:15 contradicts your view, showing that the second coming occurs at the 7th trumpet. The bowls of wrath are therefore not subsequent to the trumpets, they ALSO lead up the second coming. Rev 11 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” This does not even hint at a delayed possession, you need to do better than diluting the literal wording of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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