Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[justfaith]

Hi justfaith,

 

 

 

You highlighted it `all the tribes of the earth mourn.` (#23) You see those are the nations of the world & not the Body of Christ.

So if it is the nations of thee world Jesus is speaking about then matthew 24 is not for the Jews alone right 

 

What do you say since you highlighted that those are the nations of the world ?

 

 

Thanks 

Edited August 20, 2014 by justfaith

[firestormx]

Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

Those Jewish disciples are the foundation of the church along with the Word of God and Jesus Christ as the foundation stone, so yes I see the church and the Jews in this verse. For remember what Paul said " in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. 

 

Jewish = 1     church = 1

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

They were also asking What would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age which includes all believers including the church who will be here at this time. Also, see  #1

 

Jewish = 2     church = 2

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

​Yes, this is a warning to all that believe in Jesus in the end times, which would include the church. Also, see  #1

 

Jewish = 3     church = 3

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name? I would say yes. How many Christians all over the world are being killed  for being Christians?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 4

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

How you ask? Easy look at people like David Koresh, from Waco, TX USA or Warren Jeffs from the Latter day saints. Both were called prophets and both have mislead many, and in David Koresh's case lead them to there death. Each believer is apart of the body of Christ.

 

Jewish = 5     church = 5

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

Read the whole thing in context at Revelation 2: 18-29 but, Revelation 2:26  To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— . Now combine that with where Jesus said Not everyone who says Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven but he who does the will of the Father and I think it's pretty clear.

 

Jewish = 6     church = 6

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews? Because many like myself believe the church will still be here when the AOD takes place so I would think it would be important for all of the Children of God, regardless of what flesh they have.

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

Yes it does, all believers is who it pertains to, unless it is your testimony that nobody but those of Jewish birth can be saved.

 

Jewish = 7     church = 7

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel. No, this is addressed to all believers who are in the area of Israel during this event, not just those of Jewish flesh, but all believers in Christ.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers? Yes it does as I answered above, except if you believe nobody but Jews can be saved during this time.

 

Jewish = 8     church = 8

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  I've seen many use there roofs at the beach here on the east coast of the USA, so people can sun tun without revealing themselves to others. Besides, once again, Are their not Christians living in Israel? Why would this not apply to them?

 

Jewish = 9     church = 9

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

Are you really telling me that Christians can't work in a field or be pregnant with child? Because whether you are speaking physically or Spiritually I am here to tell you the can.

 

Jewish = 10   church = 10

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them. The weather is going crazy all over the world. We have no Idea the things that will take place to affect the weather between now and then, like nuclear war, volcano blast that blocks out the sun and drops the world's temperature. Besides it's never winter all over the world at the same time..

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews? I know of several Christian churches that Honor the Sabbath like that, as well as won't eat pork, and many other things like that.

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 11

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation. I have answered all of your questions. I don't know if it will change your mind or not. I would however like to offer free advice. Take it for whatever it is worth to you. Be careful not to promote YOUR understanding as the only possible answer. Not one of us has a perfect doctrine, that is 100% correct. All of us need each other, because we are part of the body of Christ and none is an island to themselves. I will be praying for you.

 

 

My answers are in your post above in Green.

 

Firestormx

Joseph

[Marilyn C]

Hi justfaith,

 

Yes Jesus is telling the people of Israel what will happen in Israel & also what the nations, the tribes of the earth will do when He comes. It is written for us to know more of the Lord Jesus Christ & His purpose for Israel but it is not written about us.  

[Last Daze]

Hi justfaith,

 

Yes Jesus is telling the people of Israel what will happen in Israel & also what the nations, the tribes of the earth will do when He comes. It is written for us to know more of the Lord Jesus Christ & His purpose for Israel but it is not written about us.  

 

Matthew 24 pertains to both those in Israel and her offspring.

 

"And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."  Revelation 12:13-17

[tevans9129]

Hi tevans9129,

 

I totally agree with your stand that Matt. 24 is for Israel. Many people look at the Bible as all about ME but actually it is written about the Lord Jesus Christ & His purposes. The Bible becomes a big muddle when we read it all about us, instead of learning about our Lord. We can learn from seeing what God is doing with others but it is NOT all about US.

 

It`s like reading a story in the newspaper when some one has won some money, then saying to your friends `Oh, I just won the lottery.` When we read the gospels we are reading what Jesus, Israel`s Messiah is saying to them & what will happen to them before He comes to deliver them. The message the disciples would eventually tell the Body of Christ, (when they learnt about it, the B/C through the Apostle Paul,) would be to tell the believers what Jesus said would happen to the people of Israel.

 

Very good, tevan.

Thank you for the kind words Marilyn. I certainly agree with your comments about it is not all about us. I will not offer any further comments on the subject in this forum however.

[tevans9129]

 

Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

Those Jewish disciples are the foundation of the church along with the Word of God and Jesus Christ as the foundation stone, so yes I see the church and the Jews in this verse. For remember what Paul said " in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. 

 

Jewish = 1     church = 1

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

They were also asking What would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age which includes all believers including the church who will be here at this time. Also, see  #1

 

Jewish = 2     church = 2

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

​Yes, this is a warning to all that believe in Jesus in the end times, which would include the church. Also, see  #1

 

Jewish = 3     church = 3

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name? I would say yes. How many Christians all over the world are being killed  for being Christians?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 4

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

How you ask? Easy look at people like David Koresh, from Waco, TX USA or Warren Jeffs from the Latter day saints. Both were called prophets and both have mislead many, and in David Koresh's case lead them to there death. Each believer is apart of the body of Christ.

 

Jewish = 5     church = 5

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

Read the whole thing in context at Revelation 2: 18-29 but, Revelation 2:26  To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— . Now combine that with where Jesus said Not everyone who says Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven but he who does the will of the Father and I think it's pretty clear.

 

Jewish = 6     church = 6

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews? Because many like myself believe the church will still be here when the AOD takes place so I would think it would be important for all of the Children of God, regardless of what flesh they have.

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

Yes it does, all believers is who it pertains to, unless it is your testimony that nobody but those of Jewish birth can be saved.

 

Jewish = 7     church = 7

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel. No, this is addressed to all believers who are in the area of Israel during this event, not just those of Jewish flesh, but all believers in Christ.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers? Yes it does as I answered above, except if you believe nobody but Jews can be saved during this time.

 

Jewish = 8     church = 8

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  I've seen many use there roofs at the beach here on the east coast of the USA, so people can sun tun without revealing themselves to others. Besides, once again, Are their not Christians living in Israel? Why would this not apply to them?

 

Jewish = 9     church = 9

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

Are you really telling me that Christians can't work in a field or be pregnant with child? Because whether you are speaking physically or Spiritually I am here to tell you the can.

 

Jewish = 10   church = 10

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them. The weather is going crazy all over the world. We have no Idea the things that will take place to affect the weather between now and then, like nuclear war, volcano blast that blocks out the sun and drops the world's temperature. Besides it's never winter all over the world at the same time..

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews? I know of several Christian churches that Honor the Sabbath like that, as well as won't eat pork, and many other things like that.

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 11

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation. I have answered all of your questions. I don't know if it will change your mind or not. I would however like to offer free advice. Take it for whatever it is worth to you. Be careful not to promote YOUR understanding as the only possible answer. Not one of us has a perfect doctrine, that is 100% correct. All of us need each other, because we are part of the body of Christ and none is an island to themselves. I will be praying for you.

 

 

My answers are in your post above in Green.

 

Firestormx

Joseph

 

Thank you Joseph for your comments and especially the manner that you did so, no confusion as to what the comments were directed to and easy to maintain continuity, something not often seen on forums. I would like to respond to your comments but will not do so on this forum. If, you would like to further the discussion and/or see my response to your post, I would ask that you send me a PM and I will give you a link to where this can happen. Thanks for the advice, I hope I get a PM from you as I would really like to respond but I understand if you are not interested. Thanks again.

[OneLight]

 

 

Jesse

All christians are God elect not a 144k

 

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

 

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

 

The 144,000 are Gods elect, as spoken of in Revelation.  They are from the 12 tribes and have been hand picked for a purpose.  They are elected for a specific work in Him.  This election is not the general election you refer to.

[tevans9129]

To all that have directed comments on this thread to me. It seems that I totatly misunderstood the ten commandants of posting and once that was made clear to me, it is obvious that I am not a fit in this forum. As a Bible believing Christian, when I make an assertion as fact regarding God's word, I am willing to defend my assertion with scripture, just as it is written, and answer all questions anyone wishes to ask. I not only expect my views to be challenged, I invite them. That seems to be a novel idea for some, asking and answering questions.

 

With that being said, if anyone is interested in a serious Q&A type of discussion on Matthew 24, or any subject for that matter, and/or want me to respond to your comments, send me a PM and I will provide a link where it can happen.

[tevans9129]

 

I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

I need to step in here. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law and not a classroom. Nobody dictates to anyone how a thread is to be conducted, as long as the conduct is within the ToS. What was presented to you was an opinion of what a person saw in scripture, just as you provided your opinion of what you saw in scripture, and is just as valid.

Keep in mind this site is a ministry, not Facebook or Google Groups. The only ones who can hold any teaching threads are those who are part of this ministry. Discussions are always welcomed, as are debates, but teaching is not.

 

 

My apologizes OneLight for being out of line. I totally misunderstood the ten commandants of posting when I read them and after they were made clear to me, it is obvious that I am not a fit in this forum. Best of wishes to the forum and may God Bless.  Ted

[justfaith]

God 's Elect spoken in Matthew 24 are all His saved people from Adam to the second coming of Jesus 

 

Psalm 50 King James Version (KJV)

 

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

 

2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

 

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

 

4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

 

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

Mark 13

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

 

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

 

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.