ENOCH2010 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 31, 2014 How many times must I say it........... The ones descending with the Lord are all the people's ("spirits") that have died since the Lords ascension, they are returning to receive their eternal bodies at the first resurrection. The believers that are ALIVE and remain on Earth will be caught up to meet them in the air, and receive their eternal bodies at the same first resurrection, as described in Rev:20 If you want, you can call this the rapture, but the Bible calls it the second coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alien224 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 82 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,762 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 869 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/09/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/24/1964 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I am with Marv. God bless you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 1, 2014 How many times must I say it........... The ones descending with the Lord are all the people's ("spirits") that have died since the Lords ascension, they are returning to receive their eternal bodies at the first resurrection. The believers that are ALIVE and remain on Earth will be caught up to meet them in the air, and receive their eternal bodies at the same first resurrection, as described in Rev:20 If you want, you can call this the rapture, but the Bible calls it the second coming. =============================================================================== The ones descending with the Lord are all the people's ("spirits") that have died since the Lords ascension When you say "ALL" the people's "spirits", are you saying every single person who has died since Pentecost or just Born Again Christians "spirits"? If just Born Again Christian "Spirits"...then that's "The Church". And to "descend" with the LORD they must have "ascended"...when was that? The ones descending with the Lord are all the people's ("spirits") that have died since the Lords ascension, they are returning to receive their eternal bodies at the first resurrection. ok, just so I'm understanding you. These "spirits" are accompanying Christ on his Return..... and they're returning to the Earth to receive their eternal bodies (@ the first resurrection). Why are "spirits" returning to Earth to receive their Spiritual Bodies? ...when they're already "Spirits"? Where/why are the "Spiritual Bodies" located on the Earth? Why is there a RESURRECTION ("first" as you said)....when they are already "Spirits" Returning with the LORD? Doesn't the fact that they are already "spirits" inherently and unequivocally denote that they were already Resurrected? Please show these "Spirits" returning with him??..... (Revelation 19:1-16) "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: {2} For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. {3} And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. {4} And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. {5} And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. {6} And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. {7} Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." "....for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white". Who is "The Wife"? ..... (2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." (Ephesians 5:30-32) "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. {31} For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." So the Wife/Bride is "The Church". Who is "The Church"....Born Again Christians. AGAIN I ask.... How is "The Bride/The Wife/The Church/Born Again Christians" @ The Marriage Supper in Heaven then accompanying HIM on HIS Return (Second Coming) while still being on the Earth during the Great Tribulation?? "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean".... These armies are clothed in the exact same attire as The Wife. hmm The believers that are ALIVE and remain on Earth will be caught up to meet them in the air...... Can you please show this "Specifically" in (Revelation 19:1-16) above.....? .......and receive their eternal bodies at the same first resurrection, as described in Rev:20 Please show anyone receiving their Spiritual Bodies in Rev 20....? Also, John says.... (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." This says when we see HIM we will be Like HIM....that is, He's in a Spiritual Body then we will be also. In fact, Instantly.... (1 Corinthians 15:52) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." If you want, you can call this the rapture, but the Bible calls it the second coming. Why would I? Since it's clearly not "The Rapture" but The Second Coming. It's the same reason I don't call the Babylonian Captivity the Exodus... because it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted November 1, 2014 You just go right ahead and believe the pre-trib doctrine of Margret McDonald, I'll believe the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2014 We read that the rapture will be at the last trump. Saying that, we don't know when the last trump will sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2014 It is OK, Enoch 2010. I think Enoch 2021's problem (why do you two have so similar monikers?) is that he cannot find the rapture in Rev 4-5 where pre-trib must find it for their scheme to work. The alternative is to argue that the rapture is nowhere found in Revelation. But I think that is not an option; it is inconceivable that God has not included the rapture somewhere in Revelation given that it is his most complete word on the end time. Unfortunately for pre-trib, chaps 4-5 just do not have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 1, 2014 ======================================================================================= I think Enoch 2021's problem is that he cannot find the rapture in Rev 4-5 where pre-trib must find it for their scheme to work. In Rev 4-5 ?? Strawman (Fallacy). I believe it's well before Daniel's 70th Week. In fact, before the Psalm 83 War. By the mere fact that it's nowhere to be found in Revelation, scuttles Mid/Post Trib positions. And as I've said more than 30 times.... You MUST Show "The Church" (98% of which, are DEAD) Resurrected and walking around in the Great Tribulation for the Mid/Post Trib position to make any sense. But I think that is not an option; it is inconceivable that God has not included the rapture somewhere in Revelation given that it is his most complete word on the end time. The floor is yours....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,224 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,509 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) Hi ghtan, Now you said concerning the rapture - `Unfortunately for pre-trib, chaps 4-5 just do not have it.``He who overcomes, I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I overcame & sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) So the question is where is that throne & how do we get there? Something to think on.....Marilyn. Edited November 1, 2014 by Marilyn C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2014 Hi Marilyn, glad to meet someone roughly in my time zone. Unfortunately, I can't understand how your question relates to what I said. Perhaps you can make it clearer for me. What I was trying to say, and I said it in an earlier post, is that if Revelation does not contain the rapture, then post-trib wins by default because other passages generally link the rapture with the second coming. Take for example 1 Thess 4:16; Paul is talking about the rapture, but what is the context? It is "the coming of the Lord" in verse 15. Another passage is Mt 24:30-31. Therefore, if the rapture is not found in Revelation, verses like those would represent strong support that it happens together with the second coming. I am not post-trib but I do recognise that the body of evidence outside Revelation favours post-trib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 1, 2014 We read that the rapture will be at the last trump. Saying that, we don't know when the last trump will sound. Hey OneLight, it's been a while. Well the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As a matter of Fact, the absence of evidence in this particular case is the Compelling Factor in the Matter.... If "The Rapture" was Mid/Post Great Tribulation, and given the excruciating detail in the Book Of Revelation...it should be there. Alas, it is not; Ergo, it must be Before. Lack of evidence is not proof that the contrary is true. However, if evidence can reasonably be expected to be found, then lack of evidence is evidence to the contrary. The silence on these 3 proofs alone settle the matter, quite abruptly IMHO... 1. How is "The Bride/The Wife/The Church/Born Again Christians" @ The Marriage Supper in Heaven then accompanying HIM on HIS Return (Second Coming) while still being on the Earth during the Great Tribulation?? 2. Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation.... Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time). So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation. So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib. 3. (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post. Either the above passages are True/Correct...... OR..... Mid/Post Trib Rapture is True. They are clearly Mutually Exclusive....BOTH can't be TRUE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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