Is the voice of the Son of God the voice of the Archangel -

[Littlelambseativy]

Jesus, Commander in Chief of the heavenly host is God of very God, the Son of God. His next in command of the heavenly host is Michael the warrior angel and the Chief Prince of Israel/Guardian Angel see Dan 10:12-13 . According to this verse Michael is "one of" the Chief Princes. There are 5 levels of angels.

[Remnantrob]

I'm with the camp who believes that Michael is just another title for Jesus. This is mostly because I'm an sda but to be honest, there are sda's that don't even know that we believe this as a church. Anyway back to the topic, I'm curious about what you guys think about the "angel" in Exodus 23:20-22

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 

I might have overlooked the answer by someone else but some of the responses can be long.  But I would also like Exodus 13:21 

And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 

 

And Exodus 14:19

And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 

Again I agree with most that Jesus is not a created being but I do believe he has been sent as a messenger for whatever purpose the father had for him even before his first advent as a human being.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Remnantrob

   I do know quite a few sda & I never heard that one from them although I hear it quite often from Jw's                           With love-in Christ,Kwik

How do you figure all the Scripture verses you are quoting are referring to "Michael"?

[Remnantrob]

54 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Remnantrob

   I do know quite a few sda & I never heard that one from them although I hear it quite often from Jw's                           With love-in Christ,Kwik

How do you figure all the Scripture verses you are quoting are referring to "Michael"?

Hi kwikphilly, 

It's been a long time. Good to see that you're still on this forum.  

I didn't mean to make you or anyone think that those verses are references to Michael, I just wanted to present a position for the possibility of God revealing himself to humanity as an angel although he isn't and it's tough to articulate because I in no way want to lower the status of the creator of the universe into a created being but I do want the readers to see that God can choose to reveal himself to us in anyway he chooses. If a believer can be comfortable with seeing a pre-incarnate divinity in the old testament then it would be easier to connect the dots in regards to revealing who Michael is.  Another text comes to my mind that does add a piece to the puzzle at least from my point of view. 

Joshua 5:13-15

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. 

 

Now this man said he was the captain of the Lord's host and not only accepted worship from Joshua but said something similar to what the angel in the burning bush said to Moses.

[kwikphilly]

Good to see you as well,Praise Jesus!

    Thanks for the clarification......yes yes......God,Christ  is Revealed in the Old Testament & He can appear as He Wills,,,,,eg,the pillar of fire & smoke,yep

[Openly Curious]

On 11/5/2014 at 9:32 PM, justfaith said:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17King James Version (KJV)

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

King James Version (KJV)

It is the archangel that comes along "with" the Lord when he descends from heaven that gives the shout with his voice and gives the trumpet blast gladly "hearlding" (making known) the Lord's coming.  God is not alone when he descends from heaven but the archangel accompanies him giving the shout and blast of the trumpet and not the Lord himself as once again he is not alone when he descends from heaven.

[Willa]

5 hours ago, Openly Curious said:

It is the archangel that comes along "with" the Lord when he descends from heaven that gives the shout with his voice and gives the trumpet blast gladly "hearlding" (making known) the Lord's coming.  God is not alone when he descends from heaven but the archangel accompanies him giving the shout and blast of the trumpet and not the Lord himself as once again he is not alone when he descends from heaven.

That is how I understand it as well, OpenlyC and JustF.  An archangel may accompany Him or it may be the shout only of the archangel that is heard, but it is not the voice of Jesus.  All His saints come with Him, dressed in white robes and riding horses.  The Christ slays those who stand against Him with a word.

Were we to substitute the word Messenger for the word angel in each case it may not offend as much.  Angelic beings were created by the Word Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God incarnate.  Only the Father and the Holy Spirit are equal to Him.  But He has acted as a Messenger even while here on earth as He delivered the good news of God's grace via His own death and resurrection.  He spoke only what the Father revealed to Him, so in that sense He was also a Messenger.  But He was never a created being as were angelic beings.  In fact, He is Lord over all creation.  

[RustyAngeL]

On 10/8/2016 at 6:53 PM, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Remnantrob

   I do know quite a few sda & I never heard that one from them although I hear it quite often from Jw's                           With love-in Christ,Kwik

How do you figure all the Scripture verses you are quoting are referring to "Michael"?

My friend the SDA believes the same thing. Plus she believes that Michael and Jesus, took the body of Moses to Heaven.  Now go figure that one out.  I can't believe I just answered a thread two years old.  Yikes.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Sis

Quote

 I can't believe I just answered a thread two years old.  Yikes.                                                                 RustyAngeL

Don't worry about that,I did too & so did a few others & my guess  is because our Beloved Brother Remnantrob is SDA & didn't realize it was so old as he was not here for a little while(great to have him back!!even if he did  post in 2yr old discussion-lol )......the only reason I mentioned this is because in looking to see who revived this Thread I realized I've not seen Lambsy in a while,anyone else?,,,,,Is she okay,does anyone know? I missing her  her & will have to PM her

                                                                                                                                                                      With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Remnantrob]

20 hours ago, Openly Curious said:

It is the archangel that comes along "with" the Lord when he descends from heaven that gives the shout with his voice and gives the trumpet blast gladly "hearlding" (making known) the Lord's coming.  God is not alone when he descends from heaven but the archangel accompanies him giving the shout and blast of the trumpet and not the Lord himself as once again he is not alone when he descends from heaven.

Thank you Openly Curious and Willa for weighing in.  Here is my response.  Who's voice is it in the text that raises the dead in Christ?  You're answer would most likely be the voice of the Arch Angel (Michael).  My next question would be what does Christ say about a voice that is able to raise the dead?

John 5:25-29

 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

²⁶ For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

²⁷ And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

First question.  Does this text have anything to do with 1 Thess.4:16?  If yes then let's get back to John 5 and notice that the voice that raises the dead is actually the voice of the Son of God and when they hear it they shall live.  Now who is the Son of God?  Of course it's Jesus.  vs. 28 and 29 just further detail who's voice it is and what kind of power that voice has.  Now if it is the voice of the son of God (Jesus) that raises the dead and Jesus himself says so in John, and in 1 Thess.4:16 it says that the voice of the archangel brings the dead back to life, either someone made a mistake the archangel(Michael) and Jesus are one in the same.