I think I found rapture verses

[Salty]

 

 

 

No, it cannot mean the Body of Christ because in the Matthew 24:28 version of that Luke 17:37 verse, the Greek word for "carcase" literally means a 'dead' body. And Christ's Body certainly is not... a dead body.

 

 

Yes, but what I'm saying is that at this battle, many of the enemy are slain.  They are the carcasses.

 

 

We must... follow the subject context of those Luke 17:34-37 verses, and the context of that example is that Jesus' disciples specifically asked Him 'where' those first one's taken would be taken to.

 

Luke 17

³⁴ I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

³⁵ Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

 

In our Lord Jesus' parable of the "tares" (Matt.13), the "field" represents the world, and based on how He often used agricultural terms as symbols, it means staying in the field working (i.e., like plowing, doing His Work). Likewise, one who stays at the mill is continuing to work. The two in bed at night is related to His Message about the ten virgins in Matt.25, for all ten virgins fell asleep near the last hour before midnight (time of His coming symbolized at midnight).

 

 

Now look at the Matt.24:28 example of that Luke 17:37 verse... and note the subject context it is given within...

 

Matt.24

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

That Greek word for "carcase" is 'ptoma', and it literally means a dead corpse from the Greek.

 

That Greek word is used in only 3 other NT Scriptures, once in Mark 6:29 about our Lord Jesus' dead body laid in the tomb, and twice in Rev.11:8-9 about the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the street of Jerusalem not being buried.

 

Notice the subject our Lord Jesus was giving that Matt.24:28 "carcase" example with. It's linked to the appearing of that false one that some will say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", which our Lord Jesus then warned us to "believe it not." When He then gave the example of HOW He comes in contrast to that false one, that is showing us why the dead "carcase" is gathered to those eagles (i.e., birds of prey, of which is also a symbol used in the OT for Satan's host).

 

So it's important to understand that His Message there has nothing to do with some secret pre-trib rapture idea. It has to do with His warning us to stay in the field working, keep grinding at the mill, working for Him all the way up to His return, instead of being found spiritually like a dead carcase having been gathered to that false one He warned us of there. This is not really that difficult to understand when you read it in context and don't try to pull out that 28th verse to apply it differently.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

 

No, it cannot mean the Body of Christ because in the Matthew 24:28 version of that Luke 17:37 verse, the Greek word for "carcase" literally means a 'dead' body. And Christ's Body certainly is not... a dead body.

 

 

Yes, but what I'm saying is that at this battle, many of the enemy are slain.  They are the carcasses.

 

 

We must... follow the subject context of those Luke 17:34-37 verses, and the context of that example is that Jesus' disciples specifically asked Him 'where' those first one's taken would be taken to.

 

Luke 17

³⁴ I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

³⁵ Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

 

In our Lord Jesus' parable of the "tares" (Matt.13), the "field" represents the world, and based on how He often used agricultural terms as symbols, it means staying in the field working (i.e., like plowing, doing His Work). Likewise, one who stays at the mill is continuing to work. The two in bed at night is related to His Message about the ten virgins in Matt.25, for all ten virgins fell asleep near the last hour before midnight (time of His coming symbolized at midnight).

 

 

Now look at the Matt.24:28 example of that Luke 17:37 verse... and note the subject context it is given within...

 

Matt.24

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

That Greek word for "carcase" is 'ptoma', and it literally means a dead corpse from the Greek.

 

That Greek word is used in only 3 other NT Scriptures, once in Mark 6:29 about our Lord Jesus' dead body laid in the tomb, and twice in Rev.11:8-9 about the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the street of Jerusalem not being buried.

 

Notice the subject our Lord Jesus was giving that Matt.24:28 "carcase" example with. It's linked to the appearing of that false one that some will say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", which our Lord Jesus then warned us to "believe it not." When He then gave the example of HOW He comes in contrast to that false one, that is showing us why the dead "carcase" is gathered to those eagles (i.e., birds of prey, of which is also a symbol used in the OT for Satan's host).

 

So it's important to understand that His Message there has nothing to do with some secret pre-trib rapture idea. It has to do with His warning us to stay in the field working, keep grinding at the mill, working for Him all the way up to His return, instead of being found spiritually like a dead carcase having been gathered to that false one He warned us of there. This is not really that difficult to understand when you read it in context and don't try to pull out that 28th verse to apply it differently.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I agree that they are taken to where the carcasses are, but it in no way states that those taken are the carcasses.  Just that this is where you will find them.  The reason they are found there is because they are following Him into that battle.  I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture or any secret gatherings, but the imagery of one being taken and one being left is of the rapture.  It happens near the very end of the great trib, just prior to the battle we see in Revelation 19 where we see who the carcasses are, the enemy.

 

God bless you.

[Kan]

 

If Matthew 24:40 -41, clearly belongs to the return of the "Son of man" then what verses cover the rapture?

Start here.

 

Many thanks Parker1

[Guest]

 

 

Thought second coming was judgement.

It is and occurs after the last 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. But it is not the final judgement. It is the sheep and goat judgment at the beginning of the Millenium.

 

A lot of people get the sheep and goat judgment confused.

 

Especially those who do not subscribe to a pre-Trib Rapture.

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

No, it cannot mean the Body of Christ because in the Matthew 24:28 version of that Luke 17:37 verse, the Greek word for "carcase" literally means a 'dead' body. And Christ's Body certainly is not... a dead body.

 

 

Yes, but what I'm saying is that at this battle, many of the enemy are slain.  They are the carcasses.

 

 

We must... follow the subject context of those Luke 17:34-37 verses, and the context of that example is that Jesus' disciples specifically asked Him 'where' those first one's taken would be taken to.

 

Luke 17

³⁴ I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

³⁵ Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

 

In our Lord Jesus' parable of the "tares" (Matt.13), the "field" represents the world, and based on how He often used agricultural terms as symbols, it means staying in the field working (i.e., like plowing, doing His Work). Likewise, one who stays at the mill is continuing to work. The two in bed at night is related to His Message about the ten virgins in Matt.25, for all ten virgins fell asleep near the last hour before midnight (time of His coming symbolized at midnight).

 

 

Now look at the Matt.24:28 example of that Luke 17:37 verse... and note the subject context it is given within...

 

Matt.24

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

That Greek word for "carcase" is 'ptoma', and it literally means a dead corpse from the Greek.

 

That Greek word is used in only 3 other NT Scriptures, once in Mark 6:29 about our Lord Jesus' dead body laid in the tomb, and twice in Rev.11:8-9 about the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the street of Jerusalem not being buried.

 

Notice the subject our Lord Jesus was giving that Matt.24:28 "carcase" example with. It's linked to the appearing of that false one that some will say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", which our Lord Jesus then warned us to "believe it not." When He then gave the example of HOW He comes in contrast to that false one, that is showing us why the dead "carcase" is gathered to those eagles (i.e., birds of prey, of which is also a symbol used in the OT for Satan's host).

 

So it's important to understand that His Message there has nothing to do with some secret pre-trib rapture idea. It has to do with His warning us to stay in the field working, keep grinding at the mill, working for Him all the way up to His return, instead of being found spiritually like a dead carcase having been gathered to that false one He warned us of there. This is not really that difficult to understand when you read it in context and don't try to pull out that 28th verse to apply it differently.

 

Our Lord gave us a pretty thorough overview of the End Times as they relate to Israel. It’s often called the Olivet Discourse because He was speaking to four of His disciples on the Mt. Of Olives. It was just a couple of  days before He was arrested, and they asked Him about the End of the Age. Matthew’s account of His answer is in chapters 24-25. Mark’s is contained in chapter 13. Luke’s version is a little different in that it also includes a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. You’ll find it in his 21st chapter.

 

Since the Lord was answering questions about Israel’s future and His 2nd Coming, the focus was decidedly Jewish, so we don’t learn anything about the Church from studying it. But understanding how things will progress for Israel gives us a background that makes Paul’s prophecies about the church in the End Times, which came 20 years later, easier to understand. Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians, written about 51 AD, officially introduced the notion of the Rapture and its timing to the early church, and contain clarifying information about the anti-Christ and the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit as well. The 2nd Coming is referred to in every chapter of these two letters, for an average of once in every 13 verses.

In Luke 17:20-37, the Lord gave us some additional information about the time of His coming that’s often overlooked.  But after you’ve gained the Jewish perspective from the Olivet Discourse and the Christian one from Paul’s letters, you can use Luke 17 to double check your understanding of the End times, and see if you’ve gotten it right. The fact that Luke 17 shares some language with the Olivet Discourse gives us a hint that they’re meant to be related. Let’s take a look.

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20-21)

Right off the bat, the Lord threw us a curve to make sure we’re paying attention. It came in the form of the word translated “within”.  He was responding to the Pharisees who had posed the question, and the Kingdom of God was not within them because they weren’t believers. So what was He trying to tell us? Well, it turns out that the word can also mean “in the midst of”, and the Kingdom was in the midst of them. He was the personification of the Kingdom and He was standing right in front of them. Some translations, the NIV for example, offer “among” as an alternate to “within” in verse 21.

To the Pharisees it was only true that the Kingdom was among them. But once the Holy Spirit was given, the Kingdom would also be within all believers. At that point, both of these interpretations would become true. The Kingdom of God is within us, and we are in the midst of the world. This is the spiritual, or invisible phase of the Kingdom. But as we’ll see it’s not the final phase.

Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Men will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. (Luke 17:22-25)

After being rejected and executed by the leaders of His generation, the Lord would go away, and only the invisible phase of the Kingdom would remain. It’s called the Church. But then He would return and when He did there would be no mistaking it.  The second coming will light up the entire sky, and the visible phase of the Kingdom will begin.

This is a clue as to why the Church and Israel are mutually exclusive in the world. The Kingdom of God began with Israel. He had Moses tell them so. “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5-6)

But then because of their disobedience it was taken away from Israel and given to the Church. In Matt. 21:43 Jesus said. “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.”

But this wasn’t to be permanent. After the Church disappears, the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. The early Church understood this, as evidenced by James’ prophecy in Acts 15:13-18 where he said that the Lord would first take from among the Gentiles a people for Himself, and after that would return to rebuild David’s fallen tabernacle. Later Paul confirmed this, saying that Israel had been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles come in, and after that Israel would be saved. (Romans 11:25-27)

“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26-27)

Like it was in Noah’s time most people on Earth at the End of the Age will be unaware that life as they know it is about to end, not because they haven’t been warned but because they haven’t believed the warning. Noah is used as a model of the believing remnant of Israel at the end of the age, preserved through the judgment while the world is destroyed. Noah and his family remained in the general location of the judgment while the unbelievers were swept away in the flood.

At the End of the Age Israel’s believing remnant will remain in the general location of the judgment but will be preserved while the Lord completely destroys the nations around them. Speaking of the time of Jacob’s Trouble (the Great Tribulation) in Jere. 30:11 the Lord said,

I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD. ‘Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you.”

In the symbolic language of Revelation the Jewish remnant is represented by a woman, while Satan is called the serpent.

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. (Rev. 12:14)

The Lord used this same terminology to describe the manner in which He delivered Israel from Pharaoh’s Army in the Exodus.  “You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.” (Exodus 19:4)

“It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:28-29)

At first glance this seems like another similar example. But it’s really very different. Lot was taken away from the location of the judgment to a place of safety. In fact the angels who were sent to remove him said they couldn’t bring the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was away and safe. (Genesis 19:21-22) He was rescued from the out pouring of God’s wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah before it began.

In this sense, Lot becomes a model of the Church. Paul explained that the Church would be rescued from the time of God’s Wrath on the Earth as well. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:9-10)

The Greek word translated “from” in verse 10 means the Church will be removed from the time or place or any relation to the coming wrath. Just like it was with Lot and the judgment of Sodom , we have to be away and safe before the End Times judgment of Earth can begin.

I’ve often said that Jesus didn’t teach the doctrine of the Rapture and didn’t even tell His disciples about it. But if you already know it’s coming you can find hints of it in the Gospels. This is one of them, and by using Lot as a model the Lord confirmed the timing. Before the judgment.

“It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot’s wife! Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:30-37)

In Matt. 24:17-18 Jesus warned the people alive at the beginning of the Great Tribulation not to go back into their houses for anything but to flee quickly, so it’s reasonable to assume He means the same thing here. It wouldn’t make any sense for Him to be speaking of the actual day of His return because by then it will be too late to run.  Those who cling to the ways of this world at the beginning of the Great Tribulation will find themselves losing everything.  But those who abandon them in favor of the next world will gain eternal life.  I think Lot’s wife is a graphic model of those “in-name-only” Christians who attend church and even do lots of good things, but aren’t born again.  Though they claim to be Christians, their hearts continue to long for the things of this world.  When the time comes they’ll be left behind, and many will perish in the End Times judgments.

As in Matt. 24:40-41 the word translated “taken” literally means received, and the word for “left” means to put away, as in a divorce.  After the Lord returns, some tribulation survivors will be received directly into the Kingdom. They will have become believers after the rapture and will be welcomed into the Kingdom as their reward. But those who have persisted in their unbelief will be put away, off the planet, in the place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) This statement summarizes the judgments the Lord will conduct just after His return.  Matt. 25 describes then in detail.

Some read a lot of symbolism into the comment about dead bodies and a vulture, but I see it as a simple parable. Vultures don’t gather any place in the sky except over the carcass of a dead body. The dead body is really the purpose of their gathering, it’s where they belong.  The use of this parable was just the Lord’s way of answering the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” which pertains to both groups.   He said each group will be gathered to the place where they belong.  Believers will be received to Him and will enter the Kingdom.  Unbelievers will be put away, taken off the planet.  It’s a summary of the Sheep and Goat judgment, and does not describe the rapture.

So in Luke 17:20-37 the Lord explained the two phases of the Kingdom, the invisible phase (the Church) and the visible one (the Millennial Kingdom).  He said he was going away and then coming back, and that His 2nd Coming will be physical just like His first one.  He also said there will be three groups on Earth at the time.  A believing remnant will be preserved through the End Times judgments that precede His return (Israel),  another group of believers will be removed to a place of safety before the judgments begin (the Church), and a third group called Tribulation survivors. Upon His return, some of the Tribulation survivors will be received into the Kingdom as a reward for believing, while the rest will be sent to the place prepared for the devil and his angels for refusing to believe.  It’s a remarkable overview of the Great Tribulation and 2nd Coming.

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

 

No, it cannot mean the Body of Christ because in the Matthew 24:28 version of that Luke 17:37 verse, the Greek word for "carcase" literally means a 'dead' body. And Christ's Body certainly is not... a dead body.

 

 

Yes, but what I'm saying is that at this battle, many of the enemy are slain.  They are the carcasses.

 

 

We must... follow the subject context of those Luke 17:34-37 verses, and the context of that example is that Jesus' disciples specifically asked Him 'where' those first one's taken would be taken to.

 

Luke 17

³⁴ I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

³⁵ Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁶ Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

³⁷ And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

 

In our Lord Jesus' parable of the "tares" (Matt.13), the "field" represents the world, and based on how He often used agricultural terms as symbols, it means staying in the field working (i.e., like plowing, doing His Work). Likewise, one who stays at the mill is continuing to work. The two in bed at night is related to His Message about the ten virgins in Matt.25, for all ten virgins fell asleep near the last hour before midnight (time of His coming symbolized at midnight).

 

 

Now look at the Matt.24:28 example of that Luke 17:37 verse... and note the subject context it is given within...

 

Matt.24

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

That Greek word for "carcase" is 'ptoma', and it literally means a dead corpse from the Greek.

 

That Greek word is used in only 3 other NT Scriptures, once in Mark 6:29 about our Lord Jesus' dead body laid in the tomb, and twice in Rev.11:8-9 about the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the street of Jerusalem not being buried.

 

Notice the subject our Lord Jesus was giving that Matt.24:28 "carcase" example with. It's linked to the appearing of that false one that some will say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", which our Lord Jesus then warned us to "believe it not." When He then gave the example of HOW He comes in contrast to that false one, that is showing us why the dead "carcase" is gathered to those eagles (i.e., birds of prey, of which is also a symbol used in the OT for Satan's host).

 

So it's important to understand that His Message there has nothing to do with some secret pre-trib rapture idea. It has to do with His warning us to stay in the field working, keep grinding at the mill, working for Him all the way up to His return, instead of being found spiritually like a dead carcase having been gathered to that false one He warned us of there. This is not really that difficult to understand when you read it in context and don't try to pull out that 28th verse to apply it differently.

 

Our Lord gave us a pretty thorough overview of the End Times as they relate to Israel. It’s often called the Olivet Discourse because He was speaking to four of His disciples on the Mt. Of Olives. It was just a couple of  days before He was arrested, and they asked Him about the End of the Age. Matthew’s account of His answer is in chapters 24-25. Mark’s is contained in chapter 13. Luke’s version is a little different in that it also includes a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. You’ll find it in his 21st chapter.

 

Since the Lord was answering questions about Israel’s future and His 2nd Coming, the focus was decidedly Jewish, so we don’t learn anything about the Church from studying it. But understanding how things will progress for Israel gives us a background that makes Paul’s prophecies about the church in the End Times, which came 20 years later, easier to understand. Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians, written about 51 AD, officially introduced the notion of the Rapture and its timing to the early church, and contain clarifying information about the anti-Christ and the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit as well. The 2nd Coming is referred to in every chapter of these two letters, for an average of once in every 13 verses.

In Luke 17:20-37, the Lord gave us some additional information about the time of His coming that’s often overlooked.  But after you’ve gained the Jewish perspective from the Olivet Discourse and the Christian one from Paul’s letters, you can use Luke 17 to double check your understanding of the End times, and see if you’ve gotten it right. The fact that Luke 17 shares some language with the Olivet Discourse gives us a hint that they’re meant to be related. Let’s take a look.

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20-21)

Right off the bat, the Lord threw us a curve to make sure we’re paying attention. It came in the form of the word translated “within”.  He was responding to the Pharisees who had posed the question, and the Kingdom of God was not within them because they weren’t believers. So what was He trying to tell us? Well, it turns out that the word can also mean “in the midst of”, and the Kingdom was in the midst of them. He was the personification of the Kingdom and He was standing right in front of them. Some translations, the NIV for example, offer “among” as an alternate to “within” in verse 21.

To the Pharisees it was only true that the Kingdom was among them. But once the Holy Spirit was given, the Kingdom would also be within all believers. At that point, both of these interpretations would become true. The Kingdom of God is within us, and we are in the midst of the world. This is the spiritual, or invisible phase of the Kingdom. But as we’ll see it’s not the final phase.

Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Men will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. (Luke 17:22-25)

After being rejected and executed by the leaders of His generation, the Lord would go away, and only the invisible phase of the Kingdom would remain. It’s called the Church. But then He would return and when He did there would be no mistaking it.  The second coming will light up the entire sky, and the visible phase of the Kingdom will begin.

This is a clue as to why the Church and Israel are mutually exclusive in the world. The Kingdom of God began with Israel. He had Moses tell them so. “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5-6)

But then because of their disobedience it was taken away from Israel and given to the Church. In Matt. 21:43 Jesus said. “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.”

But this wasn’t to be permanent. After the Church disappears, the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. The early Church understood this, as evidenced by James’ prophecy in Acts 15:13-18 where he said that the Lord would first take from among the Gentiles a people for Himself, and after that would return to rebuild David’s fallen tabernacle. Later Paul confirmed this, saying that Israel had been hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles come in, and after that Israel would be saved. (Romans 11:25-27)

“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26-27)

Like it was in Noah’s time most people on Earth at the End of the Age will be unaware that life as they know it is about to end, not because they haven’t been warned but because they haven’t believed the warning. Noah is used as a model of the believing remnant of Israel at the end of the age, preserved through the judgment while the world is destroyed. Noah and his family remained in the general location of the judgment while the unbelievers were swept away in the flood.

At the End of the Age Israel’s believing remnant will remain in the general location of the judgment but will be preserved while the Lord completely destroys the nations around them. Speaking of the time of Jacob’s Trouble (the Great Tribulation) in Jere. 30:11 the Lord said,

I am with you and will save you,’ declares the LORD. ‘Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you.”

In the symbolic language of Revelation the Jewish remnant is represented by a woman, while Satan is called the serpent.

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. (Rev. 12:14)

The Lord used this same terminology to describe the manner in which He delivered Israel from Pharaoh’s Army in the Exodus.  “You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.” (Exodus 19:4)

“It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:28-29)

At first glance this seems like another similar example. But it’s really very different. Lot was taken away from the location of the judgment to a place of safety. In fact the angels who were sent to remove him said they couldn’t bring the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was away and safe. (Genesis 19:21-22) He was rescued from the out pouring of God’s wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah before it began.

In this sense, Lot becomes a model of the Church. Paul explained that the Church would be rescued from the time of God’s Wrath on the Earth as well. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:9-10)

The Greek word translated “from” in verse 10 means the Church will be removed from the time or place or any relation to the coming wrath. Just like it was with Lot and the judgment of Sodom , we have to be away and safe before the End Times judgment of Earth can begin.

I’ve often said that Jesus didn’t teach the doctrine of the Rapture and didn’t even tell His disciples about it. But if you already know it’s coming you can find hints of it in the Gospels. This is one of them, and by using Lot as a model the Lord confirmed the timing. Before the judgment.

“It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot’s wife! Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:30-37)

In Matt. 24:17-18 Jesus warned the people alive at the beginning of the Great Tribulation not to go back into their houses for anything but to flee quickly, so it’s reasonable to assume He means the same thing here. It wouldn’t make any sense for Him to be speaking of the actual day of His return because by then it will be too late to run.  Those who cling to the ways of this world at the beginning of the Great Tribulation will find themselves losing everything.  But those who abandon them in favor of the next world will gain eternal life.  I think Lot’s wife is a graphic model of those “in-name-only” Christians who attend church and even do lots of good things, but aren’t born again.  Though they claim to be Christians, their hearts continue to long for the things of this world.  When the time comes they’ll be left behind, and many will perish in the End Times judgments.

As in Matt. 24:40-41 the word translated “taken” literally means received, and the word for “left” means to put away, as in a divorce.  After the Lord returns, some tribulation survivors will be received directly into the Kingdom. They will have become believers after the rapture and will be welcomed into the Kingdom as their reward. But those who have persisted in their unbelief will be put away, off the planet, in the place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) This statement summarizes the judgments the Lord will conduct just after His return.  Matt. 25 describes then in detail.

Some read a lot of symbolism into the comment about dead bodies and a vulture, but I see it as a simple parable. Vultures don’t gather any place in the sky except over the carcass of a dead body. The dead body is really the purpose of their gathering, it’s where they belong.  The use of this parable was just the Lord’s way of answering the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” which pertains to both groups.   He said each group will be gathered to the place where they belong.  Believers will be received to Him and will enter the Kingdom.  Unbelievers will be put away, taken off the planet.  It’s a summary of the Sheep and Goat judgment, and does not describe the rapture.

So in Luke 17:20-37 the Lord explained the two phases of the Kingdom, the invisible phase (the Church) and the visible one (the Millennial Kingdom).  He said he was going away and then coming back, and that His 2nd Coming will be physical just like His first one.  He also said there will be three groups on Earth at the time.  A believing remnant will be preserved through the End Times judgments that precede His return (Israel),  another group of believers will be removed to a place of safety before the judgments begin (the Church), and a third group called Tribulation survivors. Upon His return, some of the Tribulation survivors will be received into the Kingdom as a reward for believing, while the rest will be sent to the place prepared for the devil and his angels for refusing to believe.  It’s a remarkable overview of the Great Tribulation and 2nd Coming.

 

 

You couldn't be more wrong with pointing to our Lord's Olivet Discourse being meant only for Jews, which also suggests 'unbelieving' Jews at that! Jesus was talking to His Church, for His Apostles and disciples there with Him on the Mount of Olives made up the beginning foundation of His Church!

 

Furthermore, the signs He gave there in His Olivet Discourse directly parallel the seals in Revelation 6, so will you also try to say He didn't give His Revelation to His Church???

 

It is not a small thing to just try and do away with His warnings there about not being deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ who He warned His Church about for the last days prior to His coming. Nor is it a small thing to try and dump that warning in light of what Apostle Paul also taught concerning that coming false one in 2 Thessalonians 2, which is a warning about that very same matter in Matt.24 for the faithful in Christ's Church!

[Salty]

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I agree that they are taken to where the carcasses are, but it in no way states that those taken are the carcasses.  Just that this is where you will find them.  The reason they are found there is because they are following Him into that battle.  I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture or any secret gatherings, but the imagery of one being taken and one being left is of the rapture.  It happens near the very end of the great trib, just prior to the battle we see in Revelation 19 where we see who the carcasses are, the enemy.

 

God bless you.

 

 

Our Lord Jesus gave us the meaning to that idea of being 'taken' at the end of Luke 17:37, and it certainly is not... in the positive sense, but instead is a warning. There is nothing about being joined with Him to fight the battle of Armageddon on the last day in those Scriptures. You cannot just add that there, especially in the Matt.24:28 example which He gave in connection with that false christ He warned of us there.

 

At no... time, ever... in God's Word, is any faithful believer on Him associated with being a dead "carcase". We who believe on Jesus Christ instead have His Promise of Eternal Life.

 

The being 'taken' idea is about being gathered to the 'wrong'... Christ, the one Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and that our Lord Jesus warned us again about in Revelation 13, for all three of those examples are about the coming Antichrist that will work great signs and wonders on earth to try and deceive His elect with.

 

The meaning is obvious. It's about those who refuse His warning about the that coming pseudochristos of Matt.24:23-26 that IF... you fall into worshiping instead of waiting on Jesus to return, you will be like a dead "carcase". That idea of being spiritually 'dead' is a Bible teaching that our Lord Jesus covered, as did Apostle Paul in his Epistles. It actually originates from the OT prophets, which apparenlty, you have not read enough of to know that. Please go check it out (use a Strong's Concordance, it's easy).

[Last Daze]

 

Furthermore, the signs He gave there in His Olivet Discourse directly parallel the seals in Revelation 6, so will you also try to say He didn't give His Revelation to His Church???

 

Good observation.

[Guest]

The Church did not form until after the Resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Disciples. You believe what you want. But, I have rebutted your "teachings" with scripture and it is up to the reader to discern who is correct. I won't debate with you any longer as you clearly don't even know when the Church came into being.

[tigger398]

Thought the book of acts is when the church started.