Ephesians 4:8

[angels4u]

This is not about Jesus going to hell.   Jesus did not go to hell.    Eph. 4:8  needs to be understood the way Paul meant for it to be understood.   Paul is quoting from Psalms 68:18.  It has nothing to do with hell.  The 68th Psalm is celebrating the placing of the Ark of the Covenant on Mt. Zion.   Paul is using that as an analogy for Jesus' victory.   Jesus did not win His victory in Hell.   He won His victory on the cross.    You don't want to push the analogy too far.   Jesus is pictured as a triumphant warrior and he is giving gifts to  men.  Namely, it is referring to Christ bestowing the Holy Spirit.  

 

"When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.

What is 'He led captive a host of captives?' Really tired of ignoring that one.

Hello Pamela

 

Good question!

 

He led the captivity captive. Paul uses an illustration from Ps. 68:18 in which the triumphant warrior is elevated when he returns with hosts of priseners,,recieving gifts from the concuered people and distubiting giftes to his followers. Christ conquered Satan and all that has conquered us.

[Pamelasv]

Jesus said to the thief on the cross 'today you shall be with Me in Paradise' remember paradise and Hades/ Sheol were visible to one another - as Lazarus and the rich man - so Jesus did show Himself to the fallen angels chained in'hell' and when He rose He took Paradise with Him to Heaven so those who die now do not go to paradise their spirit goes to heaven.

Are you saying that paradise and heaven are two different things? I'm not following what you are are saying. Maybe you could reword that. How did he take paradise with Him to heaven, where was it before?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Pamelasv

[Littlelambseativy]

What I am saying is that before Jesus rose from the dead Hades and Paradise was merely separated by a gulf and according to Jesus the rich man could see and talked to Abraham and Lazarus. When Jesus died, he went to Paradise and those in Hades/ Sheol could see Him that yes He died but also that when He rose from the dead all those in Paradise went to heaven so that now when people die "having accepted Jesus as Saviour" their souls go to heaven because there is no longer Paradise it has been absorbed by heaven.

[Kan]

 

 

Thanks

[Raven]

"When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.

What is 'He led captive a host of captives?' Really tired of ignoring that one.

First captive = captivated, surrendering to and believing the Truth.

Second captives = Followers of the Truth

 

When He ascended on high, He led Truth a host of truthful. For Truth is captive (attractive, real, pure, genuine, loving) to those who seek it.

[Ezra]

"When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.

What is 'He led captive a host of captives?' Really tired of ignoring that one.

This verse should be taken in its entire context (vv 8-12).

⁸Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

⁹(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

¹⁰He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

¹¹And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

¹²For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

Verse 9 is the key to understanding this passage.  When Christ died, His body was laid in a tomb.  However, His soul and spirit descended into "the lower parts of the earth" and remained there for three days and three nights.  The lower parts of the earth refers to Hades, hence Christ says prophetically in Psalm 16:10 "thou wilt not leave my soul in Sheol/Hades" (unfortunately translated as "hell").

 

We know from Luke 16 that Hades had two compartments until the resurrection of Christ -- one was "Abraham's bosom" (the abode of the righteous dead) and the other was simply the abode of the damned.  Those who were in Abraham's bosom were being held "captive" in Hades, since they could only ascend to Heaven at the resurrection of Christ.

 

So when Christ "led captivity captive" He destroyed the power of Hades to hold the saints captive, by taking all of them to the New Jerusalem.  This is what is meant when Christ said that He would build His Church and the "gates of Hades" would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18).  These OT saints are also a part of the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body), and the gates of Hades were destroyed when Christ rose from the dead and took all these captives with Him to Heaven.  They are referred to as "the spirits of just men made perfect" in Heb 12:23. 

 

There is no "Abraham's bosom" in Hades any longer, so it is now reserved exclusively for the lost, who will await their final resurrection and judgement.  There is also nothing in Scripture to indicate that Paradise was in Hades.  That is a misconception.

 

The other aspect of Christ's ascension and exaltation is that "He gave gifts to men".  This refers to the spiritual gifts given to all believers, and those gifts could only be given when the Holy Spirit was sent down of the Day of Pentecost (and continuously thereafter).  First we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and then He bestows spiritual gifts to all believers.

 

The gifts mentioned in v 11 pertain to those spiritual gifts which are for the edification of the saints.  We need to also be clear that the "apostles" (NT) and "prophets" (OT) now refers to the entire Bible, since they have all passed on and the written Word of God is complete. Therefore the gifts which remain with us are those of *evangelists*, *pastors* and *teachers* (in addition to a host of other gifts discussed in 1 Corinthians).

[Pamelasv]

I was under the belief that the old testament saints were just asleep, as well as Abraham. Which is supported throughout scripture. Wasn't being in Abrahams bosom just symbolic of that 'parable'?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Pamelasv

[Ezra]

I was under the belief that the old testament saints were just asleep, as well as Abraham. Which is supported throughout scripture. Wasn't being in Abrahams bosom just symbolic of that 'parable'?

There is absolutely no valid reason to dismiss Abraham's bosom as symbolic and the conversation which occurred between Abraham and the rich man as parabolic. We should ask ourselves "If this is a parable, then what is the reality that is being presented?" 

 

And secondly "Why would the Lord present such a critical matter as a parable and then introduce real people into it to confuse everyone?"  You will note that Lk 15:3 says "And He spake this parable unto them", but Lk 16:1 simply states "And He said ALSO unto His disciples" (the also being that which follows the preceding parables).

 

The OT saints were in Sheol (called Hades in the NT) until the resurrection of Christ, while their bodies were "asleep" (a metaphor for death). The righteous souls and spirits were held captive until Christ took all "captivity" with Him to Heaven and broke down "the gates of Hell (Hades)".  When the Lord told the repentant thief that he would be in Paradise, it reinforces the truth that all the OT saints were taken to Paradise (which is in Heaven).

 

It is unfortunate that the words *grave*, *hell*, or *pit* were used for Sheol.  That simply created more confusion.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

grave, hell, pit

Or shol {sheh-ole'}; from sha'al; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

[Bible2]

Pamelasv said in post 1:

 

"When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.

 

What is 'He led captive a host of captives?' Really tired of ignoring that one.

 

All obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

 

And 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

 

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

[Bible2]

Pamelasv said in post 17:

 

I was under the belief that the old testament saints were just asleep, as well as Abraham.

 

Are you thinking of the idea of "soul sleep"? If so, only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

 

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

 

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).