Could be plenty of time before rapture

[missmuffet]

 

I personally don't think anything has to happen before the rapture occurs.  There is nothing in scripture that states the rapture will take place at the exact moment before the 7 year tribulation begins.  Some assume that is the case, but it is never stated.  The rapture could take place a decade or more before the tribulation period begins.  No man knows the day or the hour of the Lord's return, so it is best to be ready at all times.  I also agree with Omegaman that we should be ready to meet the Lord at all times, not just because of fear of missing the rapture, but because we have no promise of our next breath. 

 

Amen, Butero.  All we are guaranteed is that the Rapture will happen when God decrees it. 

 

Date setting is not Biblical.But when we hear those trumpets or Shofar it will be instant like "The twinkling of the eye" which has been described as eleven one-hundredth of a second.Now that is pretty darn fast.I believe we will be escorted by angels.That is just my speculation but that makes sense to me.God wants to make sure we get there safely.Satan is always trying to complicate what God does.

[Marilyn C]

This has to happen first -

 

`...He Himself gave some..........TILL WE ALL COME TO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH & THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, .....`(Eph. 4: 13)

 

God said it & He is doing it.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Ezra]

Matthew 24:31 = Rapture

Matthew 25:31 = Second coming

There is no correspondence between Mt 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:13-18.

 

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

¹⁶For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Angels                 vs      voice of the Archangel

He shall send      vs       the Lord Himself shall descend

No shout             vs       with a shout

A trumpet            vs       the trump of God

The four winds    vs       in the clouds

His elect              vs       we (the Church)

 

The "elect" in Mt 24:31 are the believing remnant of Israel at the Second Coming of Christ, long after the Rapture (Rom 11:5).

[OakWood]

 

Christians in the Middle East are being persecuted. They are seeing their own wives and children raped and murdered. They are being executed and crucified. They are going through their own private Tribulation. I'm sure they take great comfort in knowing that some people believe that the rapture occurs before the Tribulation - at least they won't have to suffer then!!

Where is THEIR rapture?

Or is the rapture only for privileged Western Christians?

This is a weak and irrelevant argument bringing this up while discussing end times, in particular the rapture. Just because Christians have been tortured many times over many years has nothing to do with the final end times slaughter. Of course we all feel bad for any brother in Christ wrongly killed, but as long as satan has authority and a place in heaven, this will happen. We take some comfort in knowing they have gone to a better place and our at peace with our lord.

And yes, there will be another massive slaughtering going on before Christ returns- worse than Holocaust. The book of revelation reminds us of that.

In conclusion, the Day of the Lord is very very unique.......don't treat it like it is just another day. Trust me brother- the biggest earthquake and the cosmic disturbances that follow will make every else that happened before that seem pretty "small" in comparison. (Again, not minimizing the unjust terror man has forced upon fellow man since Adam and Eve.)

 

 

It's not a weak and irrelevant argument.

Of course Christians have suffered throughout history but we're talking about torture,cruelty and the entire devastation of Christian communities on a massive scale - after hundreds of years or relative stability too. After a thousand plus years of Christendom being the strongest force on the Planet and now it's eventually collapsing.

One of the biggest arguments of pre-tribbers is that the Lord will come and rescue us all before it gets really tough. Don't tell me that, I don't need to know - tell it to the many thousands of Christians in Iraq, Syria  and Nigeria. I'm sure they would love to hear that comforting viewpoint as they sit and watch their families being murdered and tortured.

I'm not trivialising the Tribulation, nor am I saying that the Middle East is in Tribulation at the moment. What I am saying is that pre-Trib teachings are all well and good when you're a Christian living in the U.S.A. Nice, easy and  it's a comforting viewpoint isn't it?... but try selling the 'pre-Trib' philosophy to Middle East Christians. I'm pretty sure that they won't buy it!

And even if you're right about the pre-Trib theory -  don't expect a safe painless escape... if God allowed the Middle East Christians to live through all of this pain then don't expect him to give the rest of us special privileges!

[Omegaman 3.0]

How can it get any worse? Beheading sounds quick and painless compared to what some of these people are going through. ISIS are even burning some of them alive.

Anyway, regardless of whether it will be worse or not, a lot of Christians are hoping that the rapture will rescue them from the terrible times ahead but the people in the Middle East have not been rescued from mass persecution. So why do other Christians think that they will be rescued from what is to come? It just doesn't seem fair.

 

 

Corrie Ten Boom referred to this this way:

 

"There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

 

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution.  Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

 

"We have failed. 

We should have made the people strong for persecution, 

rather than telling them Jesus would come first.

Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, 

how to stand when the tribulation comes, 

– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.

We are next.

 

James said:

 2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 

Jesus said:

 10“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

      11“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

and . . .

 

If you want to follow this theme, read Matthew 10!

 

Paul said:

 10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 

 

So, all I will add to these things is:

 

Cheer up saints, it is going to get worse! - Omegaman 3.0

[MorningGlory]

 

 

Christians in the Middle East are being persecuted. They are seeing their own wives and children raped and murdered. They are being executed and crucified. They are going through their own private Tribulation. I'm sure they take great comfort in knowing that some people believe that the rapture occurs before the Tribulation - at least they won't have to suffer then!!

Where is THEIR rapture?

Or is the rapture only for privileged Western Christians?

This is a weak and irrelevant argument bringing this up while discussing end times, in particular the rapture. Just because Christians have been tortured many times over many years has nothing to do with the final end times slaughter. Of course we all feel bad for any brother in Christ wrongly killed, but as long as satan has authority and a place in heaven, this will happen. We take some comfort in knowing they have gone to a better place and our at peace with our lord.

And yes, there will be another massive slaughtering going on before Christ returns- worse than Holocaust. The book of revelation reminds us of that.

In conclusion, the Day of the Lord is very very unique.......don't treat it like it is just another day. Trust me brother- the biggest earthquake and the cosmic disturbances that follow will make every else that happened before that seem pretty "small" in comparison. (Again, not minimizing the unjust terror man has forced upon fellow man since Adam and Eve.)

 

 

It's not a weak and irrelevant argument.

Of course Christians have suffered throughout history but we're talking about torture,cruelty and the entire devastation of Christian communities on a massive scale - after hundreds of years or relative stability too. After a thousand plus years of Christendom being the strongest force on the Planet and now it's eventually collapsing.

One of the biggest arguments of pre-tribbers is that the Lord will come and rescue us all before it gets really tough. Don't tell me that, I don't need to know - tell it to the many thousands of Christians in Iraq, Syria  and Nigeria. I'm sure they would love to hear that comforting viewpoint as they sit and watch their families being murdered and tortured.

I'm not trivialising the Tribulation, nor am I saying that the Middle East is in Tribulation at the moment. What I am saying is that pre-Trib teachings are all well and good when you're a Christian living in the U.S.A. Nice, easy and  it's a comforting viewpoint isn't it?... but try selling the 'pre-Trib' philosophy to Middle East Christians. I'm pretty sure that they won't buy it!

And even if you're right about the pre-Trib theory -  don't expect a safe painless escape... if God allowed the Middle East Christians to live through all of this pain then don't expect him to give the rest of us special privileges!

 

 

You sound so angry, O.W.  I think the situation over there is weighing on you heavily.  I think it does, to some degree, on all of us.  I certainly does on me.  But God is in control and,, whether we believe in Pre-trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trib, His plan will be carried out and we have to remember that Christians who die in His name, no matter their nationality, will aleady be in Heaven when we get there. 

[missmuffet]

 

 

 

Christians in the Middle East are being persecuted. They are seeing their own wives and children raped and murdered. They are being executed and crucified. They are going through their own private Tribulation. I'm sure they take great comfort in knowing that some people believe that the rapture occurs before the Tribulation - at least they won't have to suffer then!!

Where is THEIR rapture?

Or is the rapture only for privileged Western Christians?

This is a weak and irrelevant argument bringing this up while discussing end times, in particular the rapture. Just because Christians have been tortured many times over many years has nothing to do with the final end times slaughter. Of course we all feel bad for any brother in Christ wrongly killed, but as long as satan has authority and a place in heaven, this will happen. We take some comfort in knowing they have gone to a better place and our at peace with our lord.

And yes, there will be another massive slaughtering going on before Christ returns- worse than Holocaust. The book of revelation reminds us of that.

In conclusion, the Day of the Lord is very very unique.......don't treat it like it is just another day. Trust me brother- the biggest earthquake and the cosmic disturbances that follow will make every else that happened before that seem pretty "small" in comparison. (Again, not minimizing the unjust terror man has forced upon fellow man since Adam and Eve.)

 

 

It's not a weak and irrelevant argument.

Of course Christians have suffered throughout history but we're talking about torture,cruelty and the entire devastation of Christian communities on a massive scale - after hundreds of years or relative stability too. After a thousand plus years of Christendom being the strongest force on the Planet and now it's eventually collapsing.

One of the biggest arguments of pre-tribbers is that the Lord will come and rescue us all before it gets really tough. Don't tell me that, I don't need to know - tell it to the many thousands of Christians in Iraq, Syria  and Nigeria. I'm sure they would love to hear that comforting viewpoint as they sit and watch their families being murdered and tortured.

I'm not trivialising the Tribulation, nor am I saying that the Middle East is in Tribulation at the moment. What I am saying is that pre-Trib teachings are all well and good when you're a Christian living in the U.S.A. Nice, easy and  it's a comforting viewpoint isn't it?... but try selling the 'pre-Trib' philosophy to Middle East Christians. I'm pretty sure that they won't buy it!

And even if you're right about the pre-Trib theory -  don't expect a safe painless escape... if God allowed the Middle East Christians to live through all of this pain then don't expect him to give the rest of us special privileges!

 

 

You sound so angry, O.W.  I think the situation over there is weighing on you heavily.  I think it does, to some degree, on all of us.  I certainly does on me.  But God is in control and,, whether we believe in Pre-trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trib, His plan will be carried out and we have to remember that Christians who die in His name, no matter their nationality, will aleady be in Heaven when we get there. 

 

Well said.I agree.I think Oak sounds angry too.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I am not disagreeing with you RT.  What do you think about the time of the rapture?  Do you think the rapture will take place immediately before we enter the great tribulation period, or do you think it could take place many years before the tribulation period begins?  Why or why not?

Matt. 24:29-31 occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days, but I think it's also important to remember that those days are shortened for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh will be saved (raptured). We can be certain that at least some of the living must be raptured, for there are rapture prophecies that must be fulfilled according to scripture. And these are those who Christ was warning, that they must be ready when He returns, unlike Israel, which was caught unaware during His first coming.

I'm not promoting the post-trib theory, in which the rapture & second coming occur on the same day. I do not believe that is possible, for these are two separate events with several days in between them. Daniel 12:11-12 mentions 1290 days and 1335 days. I believe the tribulation will end after the 1290 days after the abomination of desolation, and the millennial kingdom will begin after 1335 days. So we see that the millennium does not have to begin immediately after the great tribulation ends.

Those who are ready will go to the wedding supper, while the saints (lukewarm) who are not ready will be left and have to enter into the hour of trial or temptation (Rev. 3:10-11). These saints will then be overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7), see also (Rev. 6:9-11, 14:13, and 20:4). Note: these martyrs are killed during the hour of trial after the mark of the beast has been implemented, but the martyrs killed before the rapture will be resurrected with the dead in Christ.

As far as the timing goes, I lean towards a post-trib/pre-wrath rapture, but only His faithful servants will be ready. I believe that Christ will be returning to judge, first the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18), and then He will return to judge the nations before the millennium begins (Matt. 25:31-46). And I also believe these final judgments will also fulfill the fall feasts, which are God's appointed times, just as He fulfilled the spring feasts during His first coming.

Cheers

[ghtan]

 

From my perspective, I believe we do know when the rapture will occur- right after the 6th seal opens up and before the trumpets begin. It seems obvious to me that the rapture is right there in Rev 7: 9-17. No other explanation, like these are trib saints, makes sense to me. I know you don't agree and that is fine. I just wanted you to know that not all of us feel we are in the dark about the timing of the rapture.

So what am I looking for? Read seal 6 carefully- in particular, COSMIC DISTURBANCES AND GIANT EARTHQUAKE!

Come quickly Lord Yeshua,

TM

PS. I'm not interested in some possible cashless society or not. Small potatoes if any at all.

 

 

Nice to know someone else thinks Rev 7:9 pictures the rapture. However, I doubt the cosmic disturbances and earthquakes in the sixth seal are literal; I read them instead as symbols of a major worldwide catastrophy, though what that is is unclear. I guess we will know when it happens. That said, it won't come without warning because it will be preceded by the death of one-quarter of the world's population (Rev 6:8). I think the latter is a clearer sign.

Edited May 24, 2015 by ghtan

[Last Daze]

 

How can it get any worse? Beheading sounds quick and painless compared to what some of these people are going through. ISIS are even burning some of them alive.

Anyway, regardless of whether it will be worse or not, a lot of Christians are hoping that the rapture will rescue them from the terrible times ahead but the people in the Middle East have not been rescued from mass persecution. So why do other Christians think that they will be rescued from what is to come? It just doesn't seem fair.

 

 

Corrie Ten Boom referred to this this way:

 

"There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

 

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution.  Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

 

"We have failed. 

We should have made the people strong for persecution, 

rather than telling them Jesus would come first.

Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, 

how to stand when the tribulation comes, 

– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.

We are next.

 

James said:

 2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 

Jesus said:

 10“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

      11“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

and . . .

 

If you want to follow this theme, read Matthew 10!

 

Paul said:

 10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 

 

So, all I will add to these things is:

 

Cheer up saints, it is going to get worse! - Omegaman 3.0

 

 

Thanks Omegaman.  A global perspective is important.

 

There is only tribulation and the great tribulation.  Believers have suffered tribulation / persecution since the church began.  The great tribulation speaks to a time of intense persecution that begins when the abomination of desolation is set up.

 

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),.....For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:15,21

 

Any term that suggests the timing of the rapture relative to "tribulation" is meaningless and leads to confusion.  The only time of distinctly different tribulation is the one Jesus referenced above.

 

As a reminder, the resurrection / rapture happens at the last trumpet, at Christ's coming, on the last day, like a thief in the night, on the day of the Lord, as the armies gather for the battle of Armageddon.  This is directly supported by scripture.

 

We can't change it by wishful thinking.  We can only prepare for it as Omegaman's post points out.  Five virgins were wise, five were foolish.  Five were prepared, five weren't.

 

You can hope for the best, just prepare for the worst.  It's simply the most prudent thing to do.