Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[George]

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Also, I suggest that you change the name of this thread to 

 

Defense of the prewrath or prewrath/whatever position, since when one responds to it, as I just did, it shows as defense of the post-trib

when it gets truncated on the worthy christian forums page index

[Ezra]

After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days)

 

While this is true, it is also true that the Temple will be desecrated for 2,300 days which is about 6 years and 4 months (Dan 8:12-14), which is almost the total of Daniel's 70th week, and the Lord did say that those days (7 years) would be shortened for the sake of the elect: 

 

¹¹Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

¹²And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

This prophecy would suggest that the period of wrath extends throughout the full seven years, which includes "the transgression", so "pre-wrath" could not equal "mid-trib".

[ARGOSY]

 

After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days)

 

While this is true, it is also true that the Temple will be desecrated for 2,300 days which is about 6 years and 4 months (Dan 8:12-14), which is almost the total of Daniel's 70th week, and the Lord did say that those days (7 years) would be shortened for the sake of the elect: 

 

¹¹Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

¹²And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

This prophecy would suggest that the period of wrath extends throughout the full seven years, which includes "the transgression", so "pre-wrath" could not equal "mid-trib".

 

 

Many associate Daniel 8 with Antiochus Epiphanes, a forerunner to the antichrist.  This is why the 2300 does not match with 7 years or 3.5 years.

But even if this Daniel 8 character was the antichrist, "transgression of desolation" and "wrath" are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Technically I am pre-wrath, but I believe the wrath occurs later on that same  "day of the Lord".

We get raptured earlier on that same day, and so do not experience the earthquake, the hailstones, and the destruction of the armies at Armageddon, and the many other events of destruction that occur on the day of the Lord.

[OneLight]

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out where on the timeline of events the rapture would/should occur, only to come to the conclusion that it will happen "at the last trumpet", whenever that is. 1 Corinthians 15:52.  Point is to always be ready.

[Nicole W.]

This is the last trump:

 

Rev:11:15

¹⁵And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

 If you look at the text, it says that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, this is the moment of the Rapture, but should be biblically called the Resurrection, at the last day.  The church has strayed from or fallen away from this understanding of the Resurrection.  If you look at the sequences of events before this chapter and verse, the manchild, which is the chosen two witnesses, the group that will go out in power showing great signs and wonders in the name of the Lord, many will be martyred and will be caught up to the throne, as is written in

 

 Rev 11:7-12

⁷And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹²And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

 

The portion of scripture in bold is where the manchild is caught up to heaven.  This is the Resurrection (Rapture of the living) and then the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, this will be the First and more Blessed Resurrection where these who take part in the First Resurrection will be the Saints to Rule and Reign with Christ for the 1,000 years.  This reign is described in the first scripture I posted where The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  AMEN!!

[OneLight]

This is the last trump:

 

Rev:11:15

¹⁵And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

 If you look at the text, it says that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, this is the moment of the Rapture, but should be biblically called the Resurrection, at the last day.  The church has strayed from or fallen away from this understanding of the Resurrection.  If you look at the sequences of events before this chapter and verse, the manchild, which is the chosen two witnesses, the group that will go out in power showing great signs and wonders in the name of the Lord, many will be martyred and will be caught up to the throne, as is written in

 

 Rev 11:7-12

⁷And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹²And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

 

The portion of scripture in bold is where the manchild is caught up to heaven.  This is the Resurrection (Rapture of the living) and then the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, this will be the First and more Blessed Resurrection where these who take part in the First Resurrection will be the Saints to Rule and Reign with Christ for the 1,000 years.  This reign is described in the first scripture I posted where The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  AMEN!!

 

 

You are making the same mistake many do, assigning something to scripture that is not there.  Yes, the two witnesses are "raptured" back to God, but trying to say that will join them is adding to scripture, unless you believe that the church are the two witnesses.  Do you?

[Ezra]

Something which is easily forgotten is that the seven trumpets of Revelation are heralding extremely severe JUDGMENTS.  On the other hand "the trump of God" (also called "the last trump") is heralding ultimate SALVATION -- the perfection and glorification of the saints.  Therefore there is no way that they can be placed together or mistaken for each other.

[missmuffet]

Something which is easily forgotten is that the seven trumpets of Revelation are heralding extremely severe JUDGMENTS.  On the other hand "the trump of God" (also called "the last trump") is heralding ultimate SALVATION -- the perfection and glorification of the saints.  Therefore there is no way that they can be placed together or mistaken for each other.

Good point.