Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[fixerupper]

Quote

Revelation 12-19 is not chronological to, but provides additional insight for, Revelation 6-11.

It's difficult but there are some overlaps in the book that need to be observed.  I say Mathew 24 and the book of Revelation is Chronological BUT...

The beast John sees in chapter 13 rises up from the sea.  This doesn't mean the beast rises chronologically in Ch. 17, only that it rose from the sea and that it's present on earth at that time.  So yes, it is logical to assume the beast is rising in chapters 6-11, but I think we have to be careful how we overlap prophecies. Another thing.  The beast of Revelation 17 likely IS NOT the same beast as Revelation 13.  

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

You can bask in your pre-trib fantasy Lamad.  

We will soon know! Let's see what comes first: JESUS or the first trumpet.

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

It's difficult but there are some overlaps in the book that need to be observed.  I say Mathew 24 and the book of Revelation is Chronological BUT...

The beast John sees in chapter 13 rises up from the sea.  This doesn't mean the beast rises chronologically in Ch. 17, only that it rose from the sea and that it's present on earth at that time.  So yes, it is logical to assume the beast is rising in chapters 6-11, but I think we have to be careful how we overlap prophecies. Another thing.  The beast of Revelation 17 likely IS NOT the same beast as Revelation 13.  

I think many will see the man of sin, but know one will know for sure he will be the Beast until he enters the temple and declares he is God. Why? Because the Beast does not exist until then. Before that it is only the man of sin. He does not turn Beast until he becomes possessed by the devil.

I agree: chapter 13 is more about the man, while chapter 17 is more about his kingdom.  Good point.

Edited July 24, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

Lamad,

Do you see any difference in the GRAMMAR between these trumpets?

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; 
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Lets see if Lamad can figure it out.

Too often people disregard the definition of simple 2-3 letter words like 'as if the all end BUT etc'...

Beginners in Bible study see a word in one verse, then the same word in another verse, and imagine they are the same. It takes deep bible study sometimes to find out they are not the same. For example, some people, for example, Rosenthal and Van Kampen who first created the prewrath theory, saw the signs in the sun and moon at Joel 2, then at Matthew 24 and declared them the very same sign. They were mistaken. If they had studied Joel 2 and Joel 3, Joel shows us BOTH signs: the first the sign of the Day of the Lord, which we see at the 6th seal and in Joel 2, and the second in Joel 2 and in Matthew 24 for the coming of Christ.

In the same way, beginners in bible study see the gathering in Matthew 24 and a gathering in 2 thes. 2 and declare to all around that the rapture comes after the days of great tribulation. Nothing could be farther from the truth.  They are not the same gathering.

In the very same way, some read "the last trump" and then discover the 7 trumpets in Revelation and declare to all that they have found Paul's "last trump:" it is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. And they have missed the intent of the Author by a country mile.  They are not the same trump. Paul's trump is "the trump of God." The trumpets in Rev. are NOT called "the trump of God." They are blown by angels.  See the difference? When two similar things are NOT MEANT by the Author to be the same, He will make slight differences. Paul's last trump has TIMING involved; and Paul tells us that timing in 1 thes. 5. It does not in any way fit with the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

Some people get even farther out, and see in Rev 4:1 that John was called up to heaven, and declare to all that that MUST be the rapture of the church. Again, nothing could be farther from the truth: that was JOHN called up. Yet another sees the two witnesses raised, and declare to all that that MUST BE the rapture of the church. No, that is the two witnesses raised.

I have a novel idea: why not just believe Revelation AS IT IS WRITTEN?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

If everyone in this discussion spent their time in prayer instead of reading and listening to clairvoyants' opinions and prognostications regarding the future, they might come closer to understanding the reality of times in which we are about to enter. All this proclaiming "I know the truth" and "everyone else is wrong" makes me fear for you all. 

Does anyone here consider the possibility that none of you are even remotely close and everyone, including myself, may be totally deceived?

Never preclude the possibilty of being wrong. 

If you will notice, when Paul received his revelation of the gospel, he did not go up to Jerusalem and consult with those who were "some what" among the brethren: no, he went out in the wilderness and spent more time with the Lord. And he was SO SURE of his revelation of the gospel, he called it HIS Gospel, and then had the nerve to write that we all would be judged by HIS gospel.

My point? Jesus said He would build His church in revealed knowledge. And He has and He will continue to do so. Clairvoyant nonsense is of the occult. No one here is remotely suggesting anything of the sort.  Did you ever consider that some people today here from God?  I hope you know, God never changes: He is the same today as He was in Paul's time.

You make a very good point: when a reader reads 17 different answers to the same verse, he or she can pretty much guess all of them will not be right! And perhaps none are right.

Edited July 24, 2017 by iamlamad

[fixerupper]

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; 
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last trump is where the prophetic event of a gathering occurs.  The last trump can only be the seventh Trump because both are related to in a series of prophetic events.  It's crazy to say it's anything else.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know you could care less about hermeneutics, and so do many others.  Many of you don't know the difference when an article IS or IS NOT used in Greek and Hebrew.  In every verse where the last Trump of God is mentioned it is used with the article or preposition indication it's a specific trumpet.  In Revelation 4:1, John used the words, "as it were " to describe a voice talking with him so loud it sounded like a trumpet.  It's not a SPECIFIC eschatological trumpet. John was told in 1:19 to write what he perceives as seeing, and the voice talking with him was perceived 'as it were' a trumpet talking with him.  I shouldn't have to explain the meaning of, "as it were."

"....and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me."

John's way of obeying his original command from God in Revelation 1:19 to write down how he perceives what he sees.  

In fact...

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: That verse is written like this in the interlinear...   IN SOUND OF(voice)-chief-messenger(archangel) and IN TRUMPET OF-GOD   Other verses use the article instead of the preoposition.  Both indicate they come from God and nowhere else.

The last trump Lamad, not a Jewish trumpet.  The trump of God Lamad, not the trump of man!

[Omegaman 3.0]

You know iamlamad,

It looks to me that 70% of recent posts in this thread, are from you. I have not read them, but I am wondering, how many of those posts, are on the topic. The topic is "Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position". Do really have that much to say, defending that position?

[brakelite]

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If you will notice, when Paul received his revelation of the gospel, he did not go up to Jerusalem and consult with those who were "some what" among the brethren: no, he went out in the wilderness and spent more time with the Lord. And he was SO SURE of his revelation of the gospel, he called it HIS Gospel, and then had the nerve to write that we all would be judged by HIS gospel.

My point? Jesus said He would build His church in revealed knowledge. And He has and He will continue to do so. Clairvoyant nonsense is of the occult. No one here is remotely suggesting anything of the sort.  Did you ever consider that some people today here from God?  I hope you know, God never changes: He is the same today as He was in Paul's time.

It becomes clairvoyancy the moment you ignore scripture and attempt to understand prophecy outside of God's guidelines. Jesus said

John 14:29 
 ‭And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.‭ 

John 16:4 
 ‭But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.‭ 

Mark 13:29 
 ‭So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, ‭even‭ at the doors.‭ 

Luke 21:31 
 ‭So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.‭ 

...and many more like the above....history repeats and only as we consider history can we comprehend the future.

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Have ever signed a lease but did not take immediate possession? This is what happens in Revelation. Jesus gets the ruler-ship back at the 7th trumpet: HE is now the legal God of this planet. But John shows us that Jesus does NOT take immediate possession. In fact, He cannot, for HIS WORD IS OUT: the Beast will have 42 months of authority.

Sorry, I will go with John's chronology, not yours. Yours will be proven wrong.

Please stick with the scriptures.  Jesus already has "ruler-ship".  Have you not read what He said after His resurrection?

• And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  Matthew 28:18

All power.  That means all.  Jesus' life of perfect obedience to the Father made Him worthy to receive all power.  Read Revelation 5.

• Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.  Revelation 5:12

Worthy is the Lamb, the perfect sacrifice.  Jesus got "ruler-ship" back when He defeated Satan at the cross.  It's obvious bases on the above two verses.  This victory is realized at the seventh trumpet when the mystery of the kingdom is finished and Christ returns and establishes the kingdom of God on earth.  Up until then, the kingdom of God is spiritual and resides within the believer.

I would recommend that you become familiar with the Law of Recurrence.  I think it would help in your understanding of Revelation.

I post what I do for the benefit of those whose eschatology is still pliable, to give them something to think about.  If I'm proven wrong it will be in the pursuit of truth for His glory and the edification of believers.  

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would like to see the list. I have been searching for something and i think that would help me further my understanding. 

Thanks! 

I'm not sure I want to introduce that to this topic.  Maybe you should start a topic on the subject and specifically what you're searching for.  I'd like to see other peoples' thoughts on it as well.  I will post one here but won't comment on it.

• Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.  Daniel 2:35
• In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.  Daniel 2:44