Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Hmm, if you think that what you plan to post, is defensive to the pre-tribulation position, maybe the pre-trib section would be more appropriate. If you so so, send me a link or notification to that, so that I will be sure to read it! Thanks!

Hi Omegaman,

Thank you for your interest. I have now posted my comments in the pre-trib. thread, on page 50. Look forward to any comments you may have.

regards, Marilyn.

[n2thelight]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So you think you have got it nailed! You have another think coming! OF COURSE that gathering is after the trib of those days - but you have not and never will prove this gathering is Paul's gathering.  And your scenario simply does not fit the marriage and supper in Revelation.

Sorry, but your theory on "first" is also in error. Jesus was part of that "first" resurrection. It is for all the righteous. The second resurrection is called "the second death." So can you find another resurrection somewhere? God has only given us TWO.

You and most make it seem like Paul was preaching a different gospel .

 

[n2thelight]

Quote

 

Can you tell me when you believe the times of restoration of all things begins?

`God....that He may send Jesus Christ.....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.`(Acts 3: 20 & 2) 

regards, Marilyn.

 

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

We are talking about the second advent here, when that office of Savior will be filled, and God will send His Son again. But there is a very special time that must come first, when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels to the earth, for that five month period.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

It is written that on the first day of the Millennium age, at Christ's return, every knee shall bow to Christ. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Jesus is quoting here from Isaiah 45:22, 23; "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [22] "I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." [23]

This will continue for a thousand years of the Millennium age, then people will again get a little lazy, and God will release Satan again to test the people before the end shall come. There will be no restitution after this thousand years, but only a path way into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14, 15; "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, This is the second death[of the soul]." [14] "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." [15]

The subject is the restitution on the first day of the Millennium, of sensibility and God will turly bring it back. People will worship Christ then.

Acts 3:22 "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, `A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you."

Peter is reminding them that what he is saying was written long ago, way back in Moses day. Even back in Moses day the Lord spoke of these things. Even of the second advent and the first advent. This is given in Deuteronomy 18:15-19. Moses was a deliverer, and the savior of Israel, and he freed them from Pharaoh after four hundred years of captivity, but that was only a type of what would actually happen when Christ Himself would walk this earth.

It is not strange that Moses would be used here, as the voice for the prophets. The word Moses means "pulled, or saved from the water", in a sense, baptism. We see the promise that was given long ago. God would not leave us in bondage, like the Israelites were freed from their bondage, from the Pharaoh of this world. God provided a way, a path for all those that will take hold of that path to happiness in salvation.

Acts 3:23 "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.' "

We are not talking of the flesh here, but the soul. Earilier we discussed the time at the end of this earth age of the flesh where all people will bow to Christ, and confess His name, as we enter into the Millennium age. However at the close of that Millennium Satan will be released for a short season, and there will still be those souls, not flesh, that will follow Satan.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." The overcomers, called the Elect that are sealed in their minds, and do not bow a knee to Antichrist in this flesh age are the blessed and holy. This is the Millennium age, and all of the elect will reign with Christ for that thousand year Millennium age.

Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expiried, Satan shall be losed out of his prison," [6] "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, God and Magog, together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [8] This battle will be a time of testing for all souls after one thousand years of teaching and discipline. It is all spiritual battles, because all souls will be in their soul or "incorruptable bodies".

Every one of those souls that will not hear the voice of the Lord, and follows Satan shall be destroyed right along with Satan. Even the memory of them will be removed from their family and friends, it will be as if they never existed.

https://www.theseason.org/acts/acts3.htm

 

Wasn't for me but hope that helped

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, n2thelight said:

You and most make it seem like Paul was preaching a different gospel .

 

Paul's gospel was the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. If anyone can believe God raised Him from the dead, and will then confess Him as Lord, they will be saved. In fact, He was the JEWS Messiah, but He is OUR savior.

Peter and the others preached to the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah. If they believed that, and was baptized, they would be saved.

Indeed, it WAS a different gospel preached to the Gentiles. But it is still a part of God's "everlasting" Gospel. In Rev. 14, it again is different: nothing about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, BobRyan said:

 

That is not the way exegesis works. Exegesis demands that we look at how the subject is built up by other writers instead of "start over with each writer"

On the Contrary in Rev 19 we have church ready (the harvest is ripe as Rev 14 says) and is reaped (saints rapture) then the wicked are destroyed - earth wiped out. Saint's raptured to heaven with Christ - and nothing here abut a desolate earth. As the OT states "I looked and behold - there was no man".

The harvest of the righteous seen in Rev. 14 is seen carried out in Rev. 15: it will be those who appear in heaven having lost their heads. It is going to be a very large number, but no where near as large as the raptured church seen in Rev. 7.

Yes, in Rev. 19 the saints are already raptured and in their resurrection bodies, and then partake of the marriage and supper, in heaven, before Jesus is seen on the white horse. Then the same saints return with Him to the Battle of Armageddon.

There is no rapture at His coming as seen in Rev. 19. If the rapture was then, the marriage and supper will have already been finished in heaven.

Edited June 13, 2017 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

We are talking about the second advent here, when that office of Savior will be filled, and God will send His Son again. But there is a very special time that must come first, when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels to the earth, for that five month period.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

 

Hi n2thelight,

Thank you for commenting on my thoughts. And yes the OT prophets talk of the millennium restoration of rulership, however it is NOT the first realm that needed rulership restoring as the OT prophets revealed. The third heaven`s visible rulership has remained vacant until God the Father will appoint His supreme ruler over all. This realm must be first before any other area can be addressed.

` ...when He puts an end to all rule and authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

Thus we realise that the Lord Jesus Christ rules from Mount Zion in the third heaven to be able to put down all rule and authority and power. God the Father says -

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.`(Ps. 2: 6)

Where this holy hill of Zion is situated, is confirmed in Hebrews.

` ..you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.....` (Heb. 12: 22)

The Lord Jesus Christ does NOT put down all authority and power from the millennium. There was much to do BEFORE that time. The millennium is only part of the restoration, and NOT the first rulership to be restored as the OT prophets revealed.

Marilyn.

 

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2017 at 10:15 PM, iamlamad said:

Of course I disagree. Let's be truthful: there are very wise bible students on both sides of this argument and to say one say is based on speculation is just not fair and not true. It is that each side sees the pertinent scriptures differently.

It is fair and true. Have you ever heard this, "If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck."?  Three factual premises precede a factual conclusion. However with some people they will conclude it's really a kitten in a duck suit, because they have special knowledge, see deeper, or have bias, an agenda, or adhere to an ideology. Forget the facts! We have to prove our point! That's the  important thing, they must ignore fact to arrive at an already formulated conclusion. 

And even if apparently wise people have presented a compelling case it does not follow these same people are free from personal agendas or bias while engaging in a great deal of speculation. A fact, "The sky is blue." for instance, is objectively true even if smart thoughtful people claim it's purple. This is what occurs in bible prophecy. A bible prophecy is going to be fulfilled exactly as written and so there is only one correct answer, no matter how many 'wise bible students' advance convincing arguments. 

It's odd to me that anyone is comfortable with the concept, 'seeing the pertinent scriptures differently' as a way to discern the truth of scripture. Of course anyone is allowed to come up with any fact or conclusion that strikes their fancy but this will not lead to objective truth and is nothing more that private interpretation, which Peter condemns in prophetic study.

2 Peter 1

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Among other things, any private interpretation of prophecy negates the work of the Holy Spirit and demeans the holiness of the men of God who received the prophecy initially. Any private interpretation of the written word of prophecy, by those claiming special knowledge through the power the Holy Spirit, means the Spirit must have been wrong in antiquity and is just now getting it correct. Bollocks.

Well said is this:

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 This occurs like a plague in modern times, especially in bible prophecy.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It is fair and true. Have you ever heard this, "If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck."?  Three factual premises precede a factual conclusion. However with some people they will conclude it's really a kitten in a duck suit, because they have special knowledge, see deeper, or have bias, an agenda, or adhere to an ideology. Forget the facts! We have to prove our point! That's the  important thing, they must ignore fact to arrive at an already formulated conclusion. 

And even if apparently wise people have presented a compelling case it does not follow these same people are free from personal agendas or bias while engaging in a great deal of speculation. A fact, "The sky is blue." for instance, is objectively true even if smart thoughtful people claim it's purple. This is what occurs in bible prophecy. A bible prophecy is going to be fulfilled exactly as written and so there is only one correct answer, no matter how many 'wise bible students' advance convincing arguments. 

It's odd to me that anyone is comfortable with the concept, 'seeing the pertinent scriptures differently' as a way to discern the truth of scripture. Of course anyone is allowed to come up with any fact or conclusion that strikes their fancy but this will not lead to objective truth and is nothing more that private interpretation, which Peter condemns in prophetic study.

2 Peter 1

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Among other things, any private interpretation of prophecy negates the work of the Holy Spirit and demeans the holiness of the men of God who received the prophecy initially. Any private interpretation of the written word of prophecy, by those claiming special knowledge through the power the Holy Spirit, means the Spirit must have been wrong in antiquity and is just now getting it correct. Bollocks.

Well said is this:

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 This occurs like a plague in modern times, especially in bible prophecy.

Take for example, 2 Thes 2. I am quite sure we disagree on Paul's meaning. It is not an easy scripture. Oh, posttribbers think it is simple and a verse on their side. The truth is, it is not simple and it is not a verse on their side.

The truth is, it is speaking of a departing - the gathering that departs from earth or is "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin can be revealed at the proper time.  I doubt if you will see it that way. This is proper exegesis and it is sound doctrine, for it fits what Paul wrote in his first letter.

UNSOUND doctrine comes from not recognizing WHO a verse is speaking about. For end times, God speaks to the Jews, to the Church, and to the nations. If people try to mix these up and make them about the church, they will end up  with UNsound doctrine. And UNsound doctrine is like a plague as you said.

[BobRyan]

On 6/10/2017 at 0:15 AM, iamlamad said:

Of course I disagree. Let's be truthful: there are very wise bible students on both sides of this argument and to say one say is based on speculation is just not fair and not true. It is that each side sees the pertinent scriptures differently.

During the protestant reformation the same argument is made. So why then were people giving their lives for one side of that debate?

So also in the case of the Christian church vs the Jewish-nation-church both of which were established by God.

I agree that "each side sees scripture differently". But there IS such a thing as "exegesis" designed to get rid of fluff - and wishful thinking to help each person see what the Bible actually says.

Matt 24 is very clear - we have a post trib rapture of the saints at the second coming.

[BobRyan]

On 6/13/2017 at 9:37 AM, iamlamad said:

The harvest of the righteous seen in Rev. 14 is seen carried out in Rev. 15: it will be those who appear in heaven having lost their heads. It is going to be a very large number, but no where near as large as the raptured church seen in Rev. 7.

Rev 15 has an "insert" talking about the end-goal before reverting back to events in sequence where the judgment has ended - Christ leaves the Hebrews 8 heavenly sanctuary in Rev 15 - no more mediator between God and man and thus the way is prepared for the Rev 16 seven last plagues poured out ending with the Rev 19 second coming and "First resurrection" which is found in Rev 20:5-6

Nothing in Revelation says the group in Rev 7 -- is larger than the group in Rev 14. They are the same group. In Rev 7 they are said to be 144,000 but then the number is given is "without number". No number at all is mentioned in Rev 14 where we see the 2nd coming in the form of reaping of the saints followed by reaping of the wicked in destructive judgment. No "more reaping of the saints" in Rev 14 after that.

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Yes, in Rev. 19 the saints are already raptured and in their resurrection bodies,

Rev 19 says nothing at all about "Saints already rapture and in their resurrected bodies" you are "quoting you" again to make your point. Quote the text to show what the text says.

Quote

There is no rapture at His coming as seen in Rev. 19. If the rapture was then, the marriage and supper will have already been finished in heaven.

The saints await for their master to return from the marriage supper. Luke 12:36

Bible details matter. As I am sure we both agree.