Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Try again Matthew 25 is the groom coming for his wedding. Now I asked please walk us through Matthew step by step.....

25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. ² Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.³ Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, ⁴ but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. ⁵ But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

⁶ “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming;^[a] go out to meet him!’ ⁷ Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. ⁸ And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ ⁹ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’¹⁰ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

¹¹ “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ ¹² But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

¹³ “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour^[b] in which the Son of Man is coming.

NO, it is the groom coming for His bride. It is a picture on words of a Jewish wedding. The groom went to prepare a place for his new family. When it is finished, he comes for his bride....not to stay at her families house, but to take her to HIS HOUSE. It was customary for the time to prepare the "chuppah" or place for his bride would be up to two years. It was very customary to have bridesmaids that attended to the bride. It was their purpose to light up the path for the groom. Of course, being her friends, they would be invited to the wedding feast.  There are many more points that fit perfectly with a pretrib rapture.

Of course you will argue every point. That is just what you do.

Edited July 31, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 7/27/2017 at 0:23 PM, inchrist said:

Splitting hairs on a pointless matter

Yet you only expect christ coming after the 5th seal in your warped version of pre trib. Clearly you yourself need a sign to determain which part of Revelation you expect christ to appear. How is that any different to how post tribs use signs in scripture to determine the expecting arrival of Christ?

You will only think it is warped until Jesus comes pretrib for those watching for Him.  It is an absolute fact - and NOT a pointless matter: if He comes postrib, then most of Revelation will happen BEFORE HIS COMING. How then can ANY posttribber expect His coming TOMORROW?  It is impossible. They will be expecting many other things to come first.

No, I do not need any sign to know the rapture will come just before the 6th seal. Paul and John tell us this. It is not that difficult: I know the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and that they must wait for the very last church age martyr before Judgment comes. It goes without saying that judgment begins with the 6th seal.

I agree posttribbers try to use signs. But the truth is, they lump them all together when in fact they are not together.  There will be signs in the sun and moon at the 6th seal, the sign for the coming Day of the Lord, and then again 7+ years later, for Jesus' coming.

[iamlamad]

On 7/26/2017 at 0:39 PM, inchrist said:

 

 my last statement in my post was the following

 

The two witnesses represent corporately speaking the house of Ephraim and the house of Judah of those who believe in CHRIST.

 

Just like the queen of england represents corporately speaking the United Kigndom and its people and the Prime minister of the UK represents corporatly speaking the United Kingdom and its people.

 

But yet I wait for scripture its OT saints

 

Provide me scripture then that such a heresy is possible...

 

Ah! Now you are saying that they REPRESENT the house of Ephraim and Judah.  Just come out and say it: are they TWO MEN or are they not two men? Sorry, but John does not really tie the two witnesses to the house of Ephraim and the House of Judah. Is that more imagination?

 

On 7/26/2017 at 0:39 PM, inchrist said:

But yet I wait for scripture its OT saints

Again go back and look at what Daniel wrote about the 70 weeks: they are for HIS PEOPLE, meaning Old Covenant. The days of tribulation are to drive Israel back to God.

[iamlamad]

On 7/26/2017 at 0:34 PM, inchrist said:

The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John.

Yet you dont claim the prophets were ended with John? Or are we just going to be selective now with words in a text?

I am saying that the dispensation of law ended. The dispensation of Immanuel began. When Jesus rose, the dispensation of grace began. This is NO WAY says there was no grace under law. But the New covenant IS a new dispensation with different rules.

 

On 7/26/2017 at 0:34 PM, inchrist said:

This only gets fulfilled in Revelation 15:8

No, it happened back then. In revelation it will happen again. It is not a "law."

On 7/26/2017 at 0:34 PM, inchrist said:

Can you and your commentaries explain to me then if the law was ended with John, why the apostles continued to obeyed the Law after Christ ascension?

Did you not read about the first Jerusalem conference? Did you not read where Paul accosted Peter because he was with the gentiles until some people came that recognized him, and he immediately moved back with the Jews - and Paul called him out on it.  But to answer your question, they had lived the law for years. We might say, it was in their blood. These things take time to change. Remember what Peter said when he was told to rise and eat (the unclean animals)?

Next, I would say that the gospel to the Jews was different than the gospel to the Gentiles. The Jerusalem conference proved that. They were Old Testament saints that got born again and became a part of the Jewish church. But that church ended and was replaced by the Gentile church.

[Diaste]

On 7/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, iamlamad said:

If you don't believe what is written, as it is written, there is little sense in trying to discuss it. OF COURSE wrath and great tribulation are not the same - and I never said they were. What I said is, they happen concurrently: while Satan's wrath is being carried out in the days of GT by the murder of millions of saints, God begins pouring out the vials of His wrath, to shorten those days.

And if they are happening concurrently whats the difference? How is it that Satan's wrath and God's wrath occur simultaneously? If God's wrath is occurring simultaneously with Satan's then there are believers on the earth and scripture forbids this; no believer is on earth during the wrath of God. 

 

On 7/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, iamlamad said:

It will be nothing like God's wrath poured out to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. As Jesus said, there never was and never will be again days like the days of GT that He spoke of.

The above quote by you likens wrath with GT. You have equated wrath with "there never was and never will be" days which is GT.

 

John shows us that the days of great tribulation start only after the false prophet shows up. In Revelation the 70th week martyrs show up in heaven in chapter 15.

Rev 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" This is the dead believers, already in heaven by the 6th chapter, Meaning that the 5th seal (the dead from GT) occurs prior to the 7th trump (gathering after GT), which in this case is followed in succession by the 7 vials. What we see in Chapter 15 are the gathered believers from GT which is only ever described in conjunction with the day of the Lord and the return of Jesus, meaning the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in conjunction. In contrast, this group is described in detail as well as the gathering event as following GT. Why is there no mention of a vast group, untold millions strong, in heaven, perfect in righteousness, taken off the earth alive without dying? Two individuals who were are mentioned. Why not this group? Because no such group exists.

How long will that be into the last 3 1/2 years? No one knows. Those days of great tribulation may not start - where people are forced to worship the image or lose their head - until months after the midpoint:

Back on Fantasy Island? In Matt 24 Jesus said, 

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Jesus is telling the people to flee when the see the A of D. Right then. You really have to read the whole text and base your conclusions on the source material instead of just making it up as you go along. We are told to flee from where we are standing, immediately. Jesus said we have no time to go into the house and grab our phone or food, no time to come in from the field for a shower and fresh clothes. Further, if the A of D occurs on the Sabbath then observant Jews will have a real problem because they are only allowed to walk a short distance on the Sabbath. We are told we don't have even a matter of hours to flee when the A of D occurs; GT begins right then.

the false prophet must show up, the image must be erected and the mark created first. But no mater when those days begin, God's wrath, which was started before the trumpets and was IN or during the trumpets, will still be going.  In other words, the trumpet judgments come with God's wrath.  So God will still have plenty of anger by the time people are forced to worship the image or lose their head. Neither do we know how long God will allow this to go on, before He begins pouring out the vials of His wrath.  the truth is, then, that from the time Satan is cast down and begins his warfare against the saints, both God's wrath and Satan's wrath will be felt on earth at the same time. 

To point out your error again, believers cannot be on earth during the wrath of God. This is the foundation of Pretrib. Yet your statement places believer in the wrath of God for seven full years. You will cite 

1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

as evidence for Pretrib even as you cast believers into wrath which no believer will endure, according to the Word. Major error.

You can disagree all you want, you will still be in error. You think God's wrath does not come until HE comes - but this is not scripture. God begins the Day of His wrath just before the 70th week begins, and His wrath continues on through the entire week.  All anyone has to do is read it as written and they would know this.

Since it IS written as written, it is up to you to prove that it was written out of sequence.

 Revelation is not written out of sequence, it's in perfect order, an order you cannot discern. To iterate; Rev 6-10 advances the narrative from the beginning of the 70th week until the coming of Jesus and God's wrath, i.e., The seals are the outline, the trumpets begin and end within this outline. From Ch 11-15 introduce, or describe in detail the players and events within the outline of Rev 6-10. Ch 16 advances the narrative past the trumpets, which, from what I can tell so far begin at the A of D  and end at the 6th seal, but still within the outline of the seals, with the vials all poured out as a result of the opening of the final seal. This is the manner in which Rev is penned; a consecutive/concurrence of the 7's.

Your theories are preposterous.  The 7 seals are sealing a document. To imagine the breaking of a seal would occur at the same time as some event deep into the document is error.  NOTHING can be read inside the document or come to pass UNTIL all 7 seals are opened.

Again you ignore the evidence from the source in favor of fantasy. When the first seal is opened an event occurs as shown in Rev 6. As each seal is opened one specific event occurs. This is written in simple clear language in Rev 6. Traditional Jewish scrolls were written in this manner. The scribe would record something in the scroll, roll it just past the point where the text ends and put a seal in it. Then the scribe would write a bit more, roll it just past the text and seal it again, and so on. The seals then would be inside the scroll with a single final seal on the outside after the scroll was fully rolled. Not the way you imagine it to be.

 

[Diaste]

On 7/30/2017 at 1:54 PM, iamlamad said:

 

OF COURSE it is the issue: God caused Matthew to write about a gathering, and you jump on it and declare to all that it MUST BE Paul's rapture. Pretribbers look at all the evidence, such as WHERE this gathering gathers from, WHEN it takes place, and determine it cannot be Paul's rapture. It is therefore a DIFFERENT gathering. If you wish to imagine that Paul's rapture will gather from the fartherest reaches of heaven to the furthest reaches of earth, go right ahead on! However, we know that Paul's gathering will gather from under the earth first, and then on the earth.  And we know from 1st and 2nd Thes, and Revelation, that Paul's gathering will come before the 70th week begins.

The trouble with this logic is only one gathering is described by Jesus and Paul as linked to the coming of Jesus. This is why pretrib is incorrect. Do you get this idea? If a thing has supporting evidence we can safely conclude it is fact. If another conclusion is presented that does not fit the facts then it is a false conclusion. Paul said, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him," Both the gathering of the elect and the coming of Jesus are linked in time/space by Paul. Paul goes on to say, "for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." This is the A of D as described by Daniel in 11:36. This means the Gathering Paul spoke of will not happen until after the A of D, sometime in the 2nd half.

On 7/30/2017 at 1:54 PM, iamlamad said:

It is up to God how many times He wishes to cover an event with scripture. He did say that He would gather all of Israel BACK to Israel in other passages: I chose to believe this gathering is for that purpose.

But the event is covered conspicuously. That's the point. Covered in GREAT detail. This therefore is the truth and all else is fantasy.

On 7/30/2017 at 1:54 PM, iamlamad said:

This is only your opinion - I might add an opinion that cannot be proven - I choose not to believe it. Revelation makes prefect sense as written. I don't think God gave us authority to rearrange it to fit some theory.

And this is where you and many others get into trouble. You choose to believe. You have that ability, the right even. These same people choose to believe what they wish, right or wrong, as long as it's what makes them feel good.  

On 7/30/2017 at 1:54 PM, iamlamad said:

Most definitely it does: God chose to introduce John to the dragon first (chapter 12) because it will be the dragon behind the Beast and false prophet in proceeding chapters. When Satan in great anger goes after the "remnant" (the main load went out at the pretrib rapture) he will use the Beast and False prophet to accomplish this, as seen in chapter 13, and as carried out in chapters 13 - 19.

Are you purposely obtuse or is it congenital? How can the war against the saints occur when the prosecutor of that war has not yet arrived?

On 7/30/2017 at 1:54 PM, iamlamad said:

If we read Paul, " For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them," it seems most likely that they are THINKING peace and safety and imagining that they are living in peace and safety.  It is the opposite of "sudden destruction."

The point then is, the rapture will come when people are feeling safe and at peace. That fits pretrib FAR better than posttrib.

This is illogical. Paul said "sudden destruction" not "rapture". 

[Last Daze]

31 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The trouble with this logic is only one gathering is described by Jesus and Paul as linked to the coming of Jesus. This is why pretrib is incorrect. Do you get this idea? If a thing has supporting evidence we can safely conclude it is fact. If another conclusion is presented that does not fit the facts then it is a false conclusion. Paul said, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him," Both the gathering of the elect and the coming of Jesus are linked in time/space by Paul. Paul goes on to say, "for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." This is the A of D as described by Daniel in 11:36. This means the Gathering Paul spoke of will not happen until after the A of D, sometime in the 2nd half.

But the event is covered conspicuously. That's the point. Covered in GREAT detail. This therefore is the truth and all else is fantasy.

And this is where you and many others get into trouble. You choose to believe. You have that ability, the right even. These same people choose to believe what they wish, right or wrong, as long as it's what makes them feel good.  

Are you purposely obtuse or is it congenital? How can the war against the saints occur when the prosecutor of that war has not yet arrived?

This is illogical. Paul said "sudden destruction" not "rapture". 

Some people do not arrive at what they perceive to be true through rational logic.  Consequently, rational logic will not persuade them.

I've come to realize that it doesn't really matter if you base your eschatology on wishful thinking or some secret revelation or a perfect exegesis of the original language to arrive at your narrative, because the accuracy of your understanding of end time events ultimately doesn't matter.  Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13 that someone could understand all mysteries, and all knowledge and still be nothing.

What matters is that we walk in the Spirit; that we act on Jesus' teachings and keep His commandments.  That's what makes us wise and prepared for His return, whenever that proves to be. 

[OldCoot]

But Paul also did tell the Thessalonians that the False Messiah could not be revealed until there was a departure.  The translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, falling away is inaccurate.  The word literally means departure and can only mean a departure from the faith if that was included in the sentence.  The only other time the word is used is in Acts 21:21 where departing from Moses and the Law is stated and in view.   Without a definite article to expound on it, the word simply means departure.

Falling away has been going on almost since the first century and is too general to apply to the text.  The Thessalonians thought they were in the Great Tribulation based on letter(s) they had received, claiming to be written by Paul.  Paul clarifies and assures them they are NOT in the Great Tribulation because the departure must happen first before the Man of Sin can be revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 elaborates further.  The restrainer seems to refer only to the HS.  The HS indwells the believers.  Once the believers are departed, then the HS can side step and allow all hell to break loose, including the False Messiah to be revealed.

Edited August 5, 2017 by OldCoot

[Omegaman 3.0]

There is something odd here. This thread, is the newest of the "defense of (position)" threads. It is about a position, that is fairly new, at least in terms of nomenclature, and I would argue, it is the least common position people claim among "normal" positions.

Yet somehow, it has more pages that the other positions. Why do we suppose, if we do, that a relatively unknown, relatively new, relatively misunderstood, and relatively unpopular position, has the greatest number of posts, supposedly devoted to it's defense?

[Diaste]

58 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

There is something odd here. This thread, is the newest of the "defense of (position)" threads. It is about a position, that is fairly new, at least in terms of nomenclature, and I would argue, it is the least common position people claim among "normal" positions.

Yet somehow, it has more pages that the other positions. Why do we suppose, if we do, that a relatively unknown, relatively new, relatively misunderstood, and relatively unpopular position, has the greatest number of posts, supposedly devoted to it's defense?

I think it's a renaming of the Post Trib stance. From what I read Post Trib and Pre Wrath are identical, unless one decide trib runs the full course of the week. If not, same thing.

Giving it a moments thought, it would seem from experience that vehement opposition to the challenge of a popular position is the norm for mankind. People must adhere to their beliefs in spite of evidence to the contrary. The psychological sciences call it cognitive dissonance. The theory says the greater the personal value of a belief, the greater the dissonance when confronted with new (or truthful, factual) information. To a limited degree that is what's happening here, imo.  A microcosm of the church at large, no doubt,

Personally, I'm defending a defensible position. It's true the reality of such a position is horrifying to many, me included. It's also inescapable as scripture sets conceptual precedence as well as factual basis.

I continue to post in hopes of dispelling belief for truth.