Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

OC, so, you are saying that it was Darby and those pre-tribbers that came after him that Newton was referring to. Interesting.

That comment would make sense if Darby had originated the idea.  The pre-trib notion has its roots clear back to when the ink was still wet on the New Testament.  So, Newton couldn't have been referring to the pre-tribbers.  There is more than ample evidence that dispensational pre-trib doctrine was around long before Darby.   Some folks just seem to have an obsession with Darby.  That is not healthy.

Virtually every English translation of the NT (up till the KJV) and the Latin Vulgate almost stated categorically the pre-trib position in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  They majority of these essentially implied that there would be a physical departure before the antichrist could be revealed.   The Latin Vulgate used dicessio, which has a general meaning of physical departure.  At least 8 English translations all used "the departure" or simply "departure" where the KJV (and subsequent translations except the recent ISV)  used "falling away".  So it would seem that prior to the KJV coming on the scene in 1611, the general consensus implied a pre-trib idea in the translation.  Before Darby was even conceived.  Yet everyone wants to dump on John.  When it could have been the amillenial theology of the KJV translators leaking thru.

Even if dispensational pre-trib is an error of interpretation,  I am always amazed how those that claim to have a total lock on the truth will claim pre-trib is a lie, evil, demonic, etc.  That would be saying that those who do see support for a pre-trib position in scripture are intentionally lying to deceive others.  They may be in error, but to say they are intentionally lying..... that is making a judgement call that is outside of their pay grade.

Why is it that any eschatological position is placed on virtually the same shelf as salvation itself?   Some folks will make eschatological positions almost the standard of whether one is a true believer.   And, generally, those that elevate eschatology to almost a condition of salvation are tend to be anti pre-trib adherents.  It is very rare to hear a pre-tribber go to such lengths to say that the other positions are evil, lies, demonic, from the pit of hell, etc.  

Which actually makes me think..... that since the pre-trib position catches so much vitriol compared to the other positions, it actually may be the correct one.  If indeed the pre-trib position was a total lie, then Satan would be doing everything possible to protect that concept.  Yet, dispensational pre-trib eschatology seems to be the minority position in Christianity.   And it seems to catch more rancor than even the cults do.   While the cults are all growing adherents, dispensational pre-trib is declining in adherents.  It would seem that if the key to the end times is deception, then if dispensational pre-trib is a lie and demonic, it should be exploding on the landscape of theology. All leading me to snicker that maybe Shakespeare was on to something in Hamlet that should be applied to the anti pre-trib crowd.....  Ye doest protest too much, me thinks.

And one thing the dispensational pre-trib idea has going, it is a pretty good evangelist tool.  While we can all agree the final tribulation period can be terrible, those that do love the Lord and hold a pre-trib position tend to also have a stronger desire to reach out to others with the Gospel with the intent of not wanting anyone to have to endure the tribulation period.  Whereas the other positions seem to suggest that folks can just wait and when things start happening, then turn to the Lord.   Causes one to wonder how many souls have been lost to eternity because of that waiting.  Pre-trib implies an immanency that suggests now is the time for those who hear the Gospel to respond to it.   Boy... it is quite a reach to suggest that the pre-trib is a lie or evil.

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by OldCoot
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[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Glory to Jesus Christ

They whom?  Michael and his angels (Luke 20:35-36)  fought against the Dragon (red Dragon, with his 7 heads, and ten horns and a tail - Rev. 12:v.3); and the Dragon fought and his angels,(2Corinthians 11:13-15)

Certainly Michael and his angels are involved, but they are not the ones spoken of in Rev. 12:11. That group is the Manchild of verse 5,

"who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

This Manchild is not Jesus, but those of whom Jesus spoke in Rev. 2:26-27:

"‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father..."

Rev. 12:11 is not referring to angels, because the term "they loved not their lives unto the death" cannot apply to those who are immortal; nor are they able to "overcome by the blood of Christ."

From my blog post The Great Tribulation and the Great Deception:

God Empowers His Chosen Rulers

After 40 days in the wilderness (the biblical period of trial and testing), the Israelites were attacked by the Israelite-hating Amalekites. Then –

Ex. 17:9-10, 13, 16 Moses…went up to the top of the hill…with the rod of God in his hand. … So Joshua/Yeshua defeated Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. … Because a hand was lifted up to the throne of the LORD…

Jasher 81:53 [Amalek] brought with him…magicians and conjurers…

Magicians and conjurers of the Old Testament correspond to “false christs and false prophets…showing great signs and wonders” in the End Times. Matt. 24:24

Acts 1:3, 9, 11-12; 7:55 Forty days [after his resurrection, Jesus] was taken up…into heaven…from the Mount of Olives…[to] stand at the right hand of God.

Psalm 110:1-2; 2:9 The LORD said unto my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” The LORD shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. ... “You shall break them with a rod of iron.”

At his Ascension, Jesus/Yeshua received power “at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him.” 2 Peter 3:22

Rev. 2:26-27 “He who overcomes…to him will give power over the nations: ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron’…as I also have received from my Father.”

Rev. 12:5 [The Woman] brought forth a Manchild, who [is] to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. ¹

Thereafter, Satan and his angelic host, the enemy/“accuser of our brethren…[is] cast down…overcome…by the blood of the Lamb and by the Word [Rod] of their testimony…” Rev. 12:10-11

So. 1) Moses ascended in type to the throne of God, holding the rod of God, thereby overcoming his people’s enemies.

2) Jesus likewise, in actuality, in his day.

3) The Manchildren likewise in the End Times.

All at the end of the tribulation periods of their peoples.

 

 

[Steve Conley]

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That comment would make sense if Darby had originated the idea.  The pre-trib notion has its roots clear back to when the ink was still wet on the New Testament.  So, Newton couldn't have been referring to the pre-tribbers.  There is more than ample evidence that dispensational pre-trib doctrine was around long before Darby.   Some folks just seem to have an obsession with Darby.  That is not healthy.

Virtually every English translation of the NT (up till the KJV) and the Latin Vulgate almost stated categorically the pre-trib position in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  They majority of these essentially implied that there would be a physical departure before the antichrist could be revealed.   The Latin Vulgate used dicessio, which has a general meaning of physical departure.  At least 8 English translations all used "the departure" or simply "departure" where the KJV (and subsequent translations except the recent ISV)  used "falling away".  So it would seem that prior to the KJV coming on the scene in 1611, the general consensus implied a pre-trib idea in the translation.  Before Darby was even conceived.  Yet everyone wants to dump on John.  When it could have been the amillenial theology of the KJV translators leaking thru.

Even if dispensational pre-trib is an error of interpretation,  I am always amazed how those that claim to have a total lock on the truth will claim pre-trib is a lie, evil, demonic, etc.  That would be saying that those who do see support for a pre-trib position in scripture are intentionally lying to deceive others.  They may be in error, but to say they are intentionally lying..... that is making a judgement call that is outside of their pay grade.

Why is it that any eschatological position is placed on virtually the same shelf as salvation itself?   Some folks will make eschatological positions almost the standard of whether one is a true believer.   And, generally, those that elevate eschatology to almost a condition of salvation are tend to be anti pre-trib adherents.  It is very rare to hear a pre-tribber go to such lengths to say that the other positions are evil, lies, demonic, from the pit of hell, etc.  

Which actually makes me think..... that since the pre-trib position catches so much vitriol compared to the other positions, it actually may be the correct one.  If indeed the pre-trib position was a total lie, then Satan would be doing everything possible to protect that concept.  Yet, dispensational pre-trib eschatology seems to be the minority position in Christianity.   And it seems to catch more rancor than even the cults do.   While the cults are all growing adherents, dispensational pre-trib is declining in adherents.  It would seem that if the key to the end times is deception, then if dispensational pre-trib is a lie and demonic, it should be exploding on the landscape of theology. All leading me to snicker that maybe Shakespeare was on to something in Hamlet that should be applied to the anti pre-trib crowd.....  Ye doest protest too much, me thinks.

And one thing the dispensational pre-trib idea has going, it is a pretty good evangelist tool.  While we can all agree the final tribulation period can be terrible, those that do love the Lord and hold a pre-trib position tend to also have a stronger desire to reach out to others with the Gospel with the intent of not wanting anyone to have to endure the tribulation period.  Whereas the other positions seem to suggest that folks can just wait and when things start happening, then turn to the Lord.   Causes one to wonder how many souls have been lost to eternity because of that waiting.  Pre-trib implies an immanency that suggests now is the time for those who hear the Gospel to respond to it.   Boy... it is quite a reach to suggest that the pre-trib is a lie or evil.

 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, you are dreaming when you say that the pre-trib system was taught before Darby. There are only a handful of historic (pre-Darby) statements that can even be construed to be consistent with the pretribulational system. These are easily shown to not support pretribulationism when all that the writers believed is considered. Pre-tribbers fail to present the whole context of the few historic statements that they misconstrue to support that bankrupt eschatological model.

Concerning the revisionist change in the meaning of the word apostasia, it has always indicated a religious or political departure. There isn't a single use of it in the physical departure sense in all of Koine Greek literature. Just because it was and can be translated departure doesn't mean that it ever indicated the rapture. In fact, any eighth grader can see that to make apostasia our gathering together unto Christ makes Paul's statement incoherent. You have Him saying: "the rapture will not come until the rapture comes and the man of sin is revealed".

Out of time.

Glory to Jesus Christ

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

OC, you are dreaming when you say that the pre-trib system was taught before Darby.

No, you are just ill informed.   Victorinus 240AD, Ephraim 373AD, Shepherd 150AD, Cyprian 250AD are all documented and clear examples.  No ambiguity on what they taught.  There are example all thru AD history.  

And Isaiah 26, Zephaniah 2, Psalms 27 for instance all have allusions to the righteous being hidden from that period of time, going so far as to suggest being hidden where the Lord is.  So these are references that suggest a pre-trib idea even before Yeshua came on the scene the first time.  I would say that is pre-Darby.

That's ok that you don't see it.  Olaf Roemer discovered light had a finite speed and the scientific community thought he was a crack pot for over 50 years until it was finally shown by other scientists to be true.  Until then, they said Roemer was dreaming.  But there are probably still some hold outs that still think light speed is infinite.

And is the Latin Vulgate revisionist?  And wouldn't you think that a translation of the Greek made into Latin at a time when Greek was still in common usage might stand a pretty good chance of getting the meaning of the Greek in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 correct as opposed to some translators on the Greek over 1000 years later?  The Latin Vulgate uses dicessio in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which means a departure in a physical sense not a spiritual one.  

But, there are many Greek scholars that support the meaning in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as being a physical departure as opposed to a spiritual one.   Dr. Andy Woods, Dr. Kenneth Wuest, et al.  All supporting the translation of the text that many English translations did prior to the KJV.  

That someone  on a forum claiming that the opposite is apparent to even an eighth grader can see it does not make is sound exegesis.  I am more inclined to go with what I stated based on the examples I gave above.  It probably would be very difficult to produce an 8th grader who understands the nuances of Koine Greek today.

Edited October 24, 2018 by OldCoot

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That's ok that you don't see it.  Olaf Roemer discovered light had a finite speed and the scientific community thought he was a crack pot for over 50 years until it was finally shown by other scientists to be true.  Until then, they said Roemer was dreaming.  But there are probably still some hold outs that still think light speed is infinite.

And when the passing of time reveals with certainty the timing of the rapture, the question will not be "who was right?", but rather, "who was ready?" 

[OldCoot]

13 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

And when the passing of time reveals with certainty the timing of the rapture, the question will not be "who was right?", but rather, "who was ready?" 

Quite probably!

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28 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Actually the Man child is not JESUS, he is Michael. 
Rev. 12:v.5 - And she brought forth A Man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:  (Hope that you will understand that the Word - God - is speaking of One, A Man Child, and this One is Michael (Dan.12:v.1-4) not of a group of man or multitudes. Hope that you will agree with the Word of God, as it is written)

 

The one who will rule them with an Iron Rod is the Word of God the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD Of LORDS..  It is Jesus..

(Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

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13 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Yes, JESUS is the KING of kings and LORD of lords.  The Word - God - is not making reference to the Arav kings or UK or any other king of the world of Devil. These evil kings will be cast down into the lake of fire. These kings are these: Rev.1: 5-7

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; 

Rev. 5:v.10 - 

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.  JESUS is the KING of the kings made by Him kings. On the other hand, Michael is also a Lord, and a warrior too, and he is who makes the war of the LORD.  JESUS is a Savior, not a warrior, Michael is the warrior. But JESUS is LORD  of  lords,  inclusive of Michael who is Lord also. Yes, JESUS is the KING of kings and LORD of lords

 

 

It is Michael who treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  Michael "hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING of kings, and LORD of lords, because he is an Ambassador of God here on Earth. Check it out in Obadiah 1:v.1 and Jeremiah 49:v.16

The War is already running and God will destroy them that destroy the earth.

Jesus is not Micheal ... Micheal is an Angel,,, Jesus is not a created Angel.. Jesus is LORD..

[OldCoot]

Oh... I get it now!  The Gospel according to Shirley McLain and Oprah!   The trees are God, The angaels are God, so all created things are God!    Pantheism on steroids.

[OldCoot]

You see a boogeyman behind every tree don’t you?

the Jewish man who will do a hostile takeover of the earth is none other than Yeshua Himself.  The Lion of the Tribe of Judah. 

That you couldn’t make that distinction is telling.

That is why I have that in my signature line.  In many cases, it exposes who people truly are.  Just like war.  War doesn't bring out who we want to be, it exposes who we really are.

Edited October 27, 2018 by OldCoot