Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Dirt Eaters]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

And you should not.

Stay the course on this one because you are hearing the truth of scripture. 

I should not what?

I can also present truth in scripture as well. It's more in the interpretation of it that you're talking about I think

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Dirt Eaters said:

I should not what?

Buy into the pretrib thinking.

 

 

19 hours ago, Dirt Eaters said:

I can also present truth in scripture as well. It's more in the interpretation of it that you're talking about I think

It's more in the listening to scripture speak. Prophecy is God breathed so we should listen closely and do much less thinking we can interpret and more thinking about understanding what He is saying. 

And we should listen to all of the prophecy not just the parts that fit what we like to hear and believe. That's a hard one because it will lead to conclusions people don't like. 

For example, 2 Thess 2:1-7. That's not the pretrib proof many seem to think it is.

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Diaste

[Diaste]

On 9/30/2022 at 4:02 PM, Dirt Eaters said:

Btw, if you use scripture as a tool to show how God keeps safe His children. Your examples: To be taken out of your old house and make a new home somewhere completely different with only the clothes on your back I.E lot from Sodom,

Wander around in a desert for 40 years and take all of the riches from your home country and probably lose them along the way, who is going to carry gold around the desert for 40 years I E Moses and the Israelites.

Or you're going to leave everything behind sitting a boat with a bunch of animals and start all over again I E Noah and the Ark

The safety is in the promise of eternal life for us; the promise the soul is saved from destruction. Many times the mind is only persuaded through the hardship of the flesh. The safety God provides isn't safety of the body but the eternal safety of the soul/spirit. Some are beneficiaries of the promises of God, others hate the promises of God and are participants in the other, dire promises of God. 

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

The safety God provides isn't safety of the body but the eternal safety of the soul/spirit.

The blessed hope of eternal life in Christ!  A hope beyond this world.

[choir loft]

On 6/9/2015 at 3:34 AM, George said:

Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

 

 

The popular interpretation of the Tribulation is bogus.

It's false because the premise upon which it's based is false - that of a FUTURE tribulation.  

It's false because it's based upon hatred of Jews - antisemitism at its worst. It's false because it's also based on Roman Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera's published work FUTURISM, which was released to confuse and misdirect protestant eschatology.  It's false because the dogma also relies upon Dispensationalist doctrines of John Nelson Darby, a consort of witches and no true scholar at all.

The tribulation has already happened !!!

How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. (Jeremiah 30:7)

The Time of Jacob's trouble is also called the Tribulation and it refers specifically to JEWS - to the house of Jacob.

Hear the word of the LORD, you descendants of Jacob, all you clans of Israel. (Jeremiah 2:4)  

‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I chose Israel, I swore with uplifted hand to the descendants of Jacob and revealed myself to them in Egypt. With uplifted hand I said to them, “I am the LORD your God.” (Ezekiel 20:5)

The tribulation has already happened !!!

How long will Jacob's Trouble last?  According to a multitude of scholars it will last seven years.   (Daniel 9, Revelation 11 & 12, etc.)  

21st century post-modern protestant eschatology has a problem in that it cannot define WHEN Jacob's Trouble will happen to any degree of accuracy. According to actual history, not popular novelizations of religious fantasy, the House of Jacob has already suffered.

The tribulation has already happened !!!

In the year 1938, Nazi Germany began acting upon a national policy of persecution and genocide of JEWS throughout Europe.  Innocent men women and children were stripped of their possessions, their places of worship, their businesses and their right to live.  Jews today call those years THE HOLOCAUST.

Their only crime was being Jewish! No nation took pity upon them during their Time of Trouble - including America and Great Britain. Murder of European Jews proceeded at an industrial pace until the guns of war fell silent in 1945 - A PERIOD OF SEVEN YEARS.

The tribulation has already happened !!!

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. (Matthew 24:21)

In the year 1938 it began and in the year 1945 it ended, a period of seven years.  According to Jesus Christ, who is something of an authority on the subject, it will NEVER happen again.

To the enduring shame of the protestant church the demonic doctrine of the Tribulation states it WILL happen again, that a 2nd holocaust and brutal period of the murder of innocent Jewish men women and children will happen.

"I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." (God as quoted in Genesis 12:)

Be careful, be VERY CAREFUL when you speak write and hope for a 2nd holocaust against God's chosen people Israel for it may be you who suffer instead of them.

It is time to REPENT of our SINs and hatred of God's chosen people the Jews.  It is time to pray for the blessing and protection of Israel - for in doing so we shall insure blessings upon ourselves and our families as well.

Let's get it real straight.  The Time of Jacob's Trouble has already happened.  According to Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, it won't happen again. Shall we embrace a doctrine of hatred against Jews or shall we look to God who is the true author of the hope of all - including His people Israel?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited October 20, 2022 by choir loft

[Diaste]

On 10/20/2022 at 6:22 AM, choir loft said:

The popular interpretation of the Tribulation is bogus.

It's false because the premise upon which it's based is false - that of a FUTURE tribulation.  

It's false because it's based upon hatred of Jews - antisemitism at its worst. It's false because it's also based on Roman Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera's published work FUTURISM, which was released to confuse and misdirect protestant eschatology.  It's false because the dogma also relies upon Dispensationalist doctrines of John Nelson Darby, a consort of witches and no true scholar at all.

The tribulation has already happened !!!

How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. (Jeremiah 30:7)

The Time of Jacob's trouble is also called the Tribulation and it refers specifically to JEWS - to the house of Jacob.

Hear the word of the LORD, you descendants of Jacob, all you clans of Israel. (Jeremiah 2:4)  

‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I chose Israel, I swore with uplifted hand to the descendants of Jacob and revealed myself to them in Egypt. With uplifted hand I said to them, “I am the LORD your God.” (Ezekiel 20:5)

The tribulation has already happened !!!

How long will Jacob's Trouble last?  According to a multitude of scholars it will last seven years.   (Daniel 9, Revelation 11 & 12, etc.)  

21st century post-modern protestant eschatology has a problem in that it cannot define WHEN Jacob's Trouble will happen to any degree of accuracy. According to actual history, not popular novelizations of religious fantasy, the House of Jacob has already suffered.

The tribulation has already happened !!!

In the year 1938, Nazi Germany began acting upon a national policy of persecution and genocide of JEWS throughout Europe.  Innocent men women and children were stripped of their possessions, their places of worship, their businesses and their right to live.  Jews today call those years THE HOLOCAUST.

Their only crime was being Jewish! No nation took pity upon them during their Time of Trouble - including America and Great Britain. Murder of European Jews proceeded at an industrial pace until the guns of war fell silent in 1945 - A PERIOD OF SEVEN YEARS.

The tribulation has already happened !!!

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. (Matthew 24:21)

In the year 1938 it began and in the year 1945 it ended, a period of seven years.  According to Jesus Christ, who is something of an authority on the subject, it will NEVER happen again.

To the enduring shame of the protestant church the demonic doctrine of the Tribulation states it WILL happen again, that a 2nd holocaust and brutal period of the murder of innocent Jewish men women and children will happen.

"I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." (God as quoted in Genesis 12:)

Be careful, be VERY CAREFUL when you speak write and hope for a 2nd holocaust against God's chosen people Israel for it may be you who suffer instead of them.

It is time to REPENT of our SINs and hatred of God's chosen people the Jews.  It is time to pray for the blessing and protection of Israel - for in doing so we shall insure blessings upon ourselves and our families as well.

Let's get it real straight.  The Time of Jacob's Trouble has already happened.  According to Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, it won't happen again. Shall we embrace a doctrine of hatred against Jews or shall we look to God who is the true author of the hope of all - including His people Israel?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

That's all well and good but it leaves out many conditions that should exist either now or throughout the last 2000 years.

[JoeCanada]

On 7/10/2015 at 5:00 PM, Ezra said:

Something which is easily forgotten is that the seven trumpets of Revelation are heralding extremely severe JUDGMENTS.  On the other hand "the trump of God" (also called "the last trump") is heralding ultimate SALVATION -- the perfection and glorification of the saints.  Therefore there is no way that they can be placed together or mistaken for each other.

Hi Ezra,

Yes.... This is worth repeating. Great point!

[DeighAnn]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:22 AM, choir loft said:

The Time of Jacob's trouble is also called the Tribulation and it refers specifically to JEWS - to the house of Jacob.

Except when House of JACOB is used, it is referring to all the tribes, HENCE JACOB, not just THE TRIBE OF JUDAH.   Jacob/Israel was the father of 12, not one.  

The time of Jacobs trouble may be when Satan tribulation is taking place but GOD ISN'T MAD at His own people for doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.  CHRISTIANS can try and 'boast' saying Israel must be punished while we fly away, 

BUT GOD KNOWS HE BLINDED THEM and it was SO SALVATION could could be offered to all the world.  Does the CHURCH ever CONSIDER THAT?  nope.

Notice what else the CHURCH doesn't think about?  That when the 'calling of the gentiles' is done is when the blindness comes off.  
 

On 10/20/2022 at 5:22 AM, choir loft said:

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Do you really consider what man can do to other men as a 'greater tribulation' than GODS WRATH FALLING UPON THE WHOLE FALLEN AWAY AND INHABITED WORLD?  

I will put my money on GODS WRATH as the greatest tribulation ever to be seen.  

Edited December 29, 2022 by DeighAnn

[choir loft]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Except when House of JACOB is used, it is referring to all the tribes, HENCE JACOB, not just THE TRIBE OF JUDAH.   Jacob/Israel was the father of 12, not one.  

The time of Jacobs trouble may be when Satan tribulation is taking place but GOD ISN'T MAD at His own people for doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.  CHRISTIANS can try and 'boast' saying Israel must be punished while we fly away, 

BUT GOD KNOWS HE BLINDED THEM and it was SO SALVATION could could be offered to all the world.  Does the CHURCH ever CONSIDER THAT?  nope.

Notice what else the CHURCH doesn't think about?  That when the 'calling of the gentiles' is done is when the blindness comes off.  
 

Do you really consider what man can do to other men as a 'greater tribulation' than GODS WRATH FALLING UPON THE WHOLE FALLEN AWAY AND INHABITED WORLD?  

I will put my money on GODS WRATH as the greatest tribulation ever to be seen.  

Your post rejects the Holocaust as the Time of Jacob's trouble predicted by the prophet Jeremiah and others.

You offer no documented alternative.  Instead you fill your post with unjustified opinion.  You write phrases such as; "may be when Satan tribulation" or "GOD ISN'T MAD at His own people for doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing."  

In the first instance you aren't even sure of your own conjecture when you write 'may be'.  

In the second instance you are entirely incorrect.   Jews WERE NOT doing as they were supposed to be doing.  Jesus said so.  Jews & Romans together rejected Christ and crucified Him in humiliation.  As a result the Second Temple, as well as the entire city of Jerusalem, was totally destroyed on Tisha B'Av.  

God did not blind Jews so much as they yielded to it themselves.  The same sort of humanistic interpretation of scripture exists today even among all of Christendom - and it's getting worse.

Exactly what do you mean by your reference to " when the 'calling of the gentiles' is done is when the blindness comes off."?  

Luke 21:24b quotes Jesus saying, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled"  The prophecy of Christ has nothing to do with gentile and Jewish spiritual blindness and false interpretations of scripture.  Instead it's a prediction of an historic event that has already happened.  

THE TIME OF THE GENTILES WAS FULFILLED in June 1967 when the IDF liberated the old city of Jerusalem.  To this day the liberation is celebrated during the Israeli holiday of Yom Yerushalayim.  Beginning in the next year, 1968, the fortunes of Christendom began to whither and decline as it has done to this day.

The blindness of Israel will remain until ha-Mashiach reappears.  (Zechariah 12:10)

The reader MUST remember that ALL Biblical prophecy centers upon Israel - both the ancient people of the Tanakh as well as those of the modern State of Israel.  

The Bible is written BY Jews, FOR Jews and ABOUT Jews.  

The hope of immortal life presented to all the gentile world is based upon Jewish LAW extended by the GRACE of Christ to anyone who will give Him their allegiance and BECOME JEWS - as in Romans 2:29.

The Great Tribulation as it is interpreted by the debauched antisemitic church is a fantasy invented by the Vatican in the last years of the 16th century and reinterpreted by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century.  It is not indicative of the facts of history.  

Historic FACT teaches the seven year period of the greatest trouble to ever visit Jews IS the holocaust of 1938-1945.  Jew hating antisemitic church types hope for a second holocaust (as they did in the 1930's).  They teach a demonic doctrine of hope for a second visitation of murder and persecution upon innocent Jewish men, women and children.  It is a shame upon the church that God will punish. (Genesis 12:3 & 1 Peter 4:17)

IS IT A CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE TO WISH DEATH UPON ANYONE?

Apparently it is if one is to accept the bovine excrement of current eschatology.   The reader needs to reexamine the lies he or she has been told about Jews and the 2nd coming.   They are hateful and historically proven to be untrue.  It is time for all of us to repent of this particular form of wickedness.

Ask a Jew about this and listen to what they say........      

Read the Bible with fresh eyes and learn something new.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited December 30, 2022 by choir loft

[choir loft]

On 12/29/2022 at 10:57 AM, Diaste said:

That's all well and good but it leaves out many conditions that should exist either now or throughout the last 2000 years.

What conditions?

Many of the predictions of Jesus and the apostles HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED including but not limited to Revelation 13:3.  That particular prophecy was fulfilled in the 19th and 20th centuries. (Upon request I can cite historic occasions to prove this assertion.)

Your statement is based not upon scripture but upon false interpretations that require a particular sequence.  The sequence is wrong because most of it is based upon the Gregorian calendar, which wasn't adopted by European until October 1582.   Biblical prophecy is based upon the Hebrew calendar and the Year of Jubilee.

Since church types use the Gregorian calendar to reinterpret scripture they will always be wrong.  In actual fact, nobody knows the arithmetic basis for the Year of Jubilee (as admitted by Christ in Mark 13:32-33).  Jesus' remark was based upon arithmetic calculations, not metaphysical events.  Nobody of His generation knew when the calculation of the Year of Jubilee would initiate many events because the beginning of the number of years had been forgotten.  

Jubilee had never been celebrated as the LAW required because Moses died before it could be observed.  Joshua didn't observe it either and in time it was forgotten.

The 'conditions' you mention are related to a sequence of events that are misinterpreted by the RCC and protestant churches that march in lock step with it.

Consider these things carefully and you will begin to understand what a mess we're dealing with.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited December 30, 2022 by choir loft