Stumbling - 1 Corinthians, chapter 8 - Is this an example?

[Omegaman 3.0]

First off let me say that this thread will likely be presented in stages. The title, about stumbling and first Corinthians chapter 8, is not going to be the primary focus at first but you should read that chapter before reading what I am about to post so you have it fresh in your mind what some of the issues being discussed are about.

I am going to give you a story, and I want to limit the discussion to this specific elements in the story and not get sidetracked with other examples of what it is to stumble someone or to get too caught up in the details of this Bible chapter. There will be a time and a place for that later in this thread. I want you to give your inputs to develop that topic further but later on in the thread.

For now, if you can control yourselves, just speak to the specifics of the following story. Thank you!

 

In Southern California there is a place called the Hollywood Bowl. It is a large amphitheater which is primarily used for musical performances. Sometimes in the summer it features a program of classical music and fireworks.

 

There was a couple who attended a large church about 20 miles from the Hollywood bowl. A group of people at this church decided to go to one of these Hollywood Bowl concerts and so they coordinated a trip where they all got on a bus and went there for a nice summer evening of festivities.

 

One of the features of these summer concerts is that people are allowed to bring food and drink into the event and have a dining experience along with the music and fireworks.

 

The couple which I have already mentioned brought along a picnic basket. When they got their seating position at the Hollywood Bowl they opened up the picnic basket and pulled out a small tablecloth and set it upon the bench seats there at the Hollywood Bowl.

 

Then they got out a bowl of tortilla chips, and a bowl of salsa and enjoyed their snack. From the picnic basket they produced a tall dark green glass bottle and two champagne glasses. They filled their glasses with the pale amber effervescent beverage and enjoyed it slowly until the bottle was empty.

 

This happened on a Friday evening. The following Sunday morning, this couple went to church as was their habit. The pastor of this church had been doing a series of sermons from the book of Romans. However on this particular Sunday, the pastor deviated from his plan to teach from the book of Romans and instead taught from 1st Corinthians chapter 8.

 

He spoke about how it is possible for Christians to stumble their brothers and sisters in Christ by what they eat or drink. Near the end of the sermon, the pastor spoke about a recent incident that he had heard about.

 

Someone from the congregation had come to him and this person was quite upset, because she had gone to the Hollywood Bowl event and saw there, a couple from their church who was openly drinking champagne.

 

The pastor became noticeably upset and in a scathing tone of voice said; "How dare you!" He then seemingly berated the congregation for their lack of love and sensitivity for their brothers and sisters in Christ. Of course for all we know there was just one couple to be blamed for this but the pastor was not giving a sermon to a couple nor confronting them directly, most likely he did not know who the couple was.

 

Perhaps this created a sense of frustration for the pastor knowing that this problem existed in his congregation but he was not able to direct his concerns to the couple, so the whole congregation received a sermon on the topic and the unknown couple became an object lesson.

 

The pastor calmed down a bit and continued his sermon and gave an example from his own life. It turns out that this pastor used to enjoy and drink wine. He would do this, after he had become a Christian, but in the privacy of his own home, certainly not in public. He did this, because he did not want to cause offense of any brother or sister.

 

Later, he was convicted that he should not even drink wine in the privacy of his own home, just in case by some chance someone would learn of it. He said that he did not see in the Bible where the drinking, in and of itself, was considered sinful. Jesus Himself, the pastor pointed out, turned water into wine. However, the pastor said, because I love my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I will not drink wine even in privacy because I don't want there to be any chance at all that I might cause offense to them.

 

The above story is true, but the story is not complete. I wanted to get these details in here because later on I will have a follow-up question.

 

I have told this story before, in the chat room here at Worthy Christian Forums. If you are one of those people who know this story, please do not respond to this thread at this time, but feel free to return to comment once I asked the follow-up question.

 

My questions for now are:

 

Based on the story above, how many people did something wrong or handled something poorly?

 

Which characters did something wrong (if any), which characters exercised poor judgment, and what things do you think that they did wrong or should have done better or another way?

 

Looking forward to your perspectives.

 

[Willa]

Whether or not the bottle contained champaign, it gave the appearance of evil to the other person. They should not cause their brother to stumble were they perhaps recovering alcoholics.. If it is illegal to have alcohol in that place, they are again giving the wrong impression, especially to impressive teen agers.

The other people should not condemn them by what they eat or drink nor assume the worst of them.

The pastor should not have been so outraged nor directed the sermon to one couple, condemning them. He also was jumping to conclusions. It was right for him to set a good example as he is in leadership, but he should not hold the congregation to the same exact standard. He also should not be self righteous about it but should set a good example in attitude for the congregation. He should give all sides of the issue from scripture to the congregation and let the Holy Spirit speak to them concerning what is best to do and what their attitudes should be.

My first impressions. Wish I could spend more time on it. Personally, I enjoy sparkling cider occasionally.

[The_Patriot21]

I dont remember you telling me this story, if you did, I apologize. But here are my thoughts, I don't see the problem here, at least not on the part of the person drinking the champagne. Like you said, this isn't the whole story, but from what I see, the problem is with the people who did the observing, being overly judgemental. They saw it, and were upset, and while not all the evidence is present, so I can't be certain, it can be assumed it was because this "person" thought that drinking was wrong, and instead of confronting the couple drinking-they went to the pastor behind the persons back, which is mistake number 1-the Bible clearly states if you have a problem with someone to take the problem to them, not go behind their back to the pastor, who then took it to the entire congregation. In fact, it pretty much falls under the gossip category, theyre first making a judgement of this couple-that what they are doing is "wrong" even though, as stated by the pastor its "not" wrong to have an occasional drink, but theyre going behind this couples back about it, so the person doing the observing, in essence in my book, sinned twice.

 

Now, if someone who was a recovering alcholic saw this couple, and had thought that since they could do he could to, took a drink and couldn't stop, leading to drunkedness, or was at least tempted to, then there would be a strong case for the couple not to drink, at least not in public, as it is creating a stumbling block. Again, they probably should have confronted the couple themselves, but on the same note I can understand why they didn't, but even then perhaps the pastor should have at least addressed the couple in private before turning it into a sermon illustration. 

 

Just my .02 cents.

[Sister]

Omegaman

 

The couple drinking  did not do anything wrong.  They were not there to preach, were not there amongst brothers, but enjoying an evening with each other.  They had one bottle to share, which shows they drank in moderation, and not to excessiveness.

 

Ephesians 5:18   And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

 

 

The bible says it is ok to have a little wine.

1 Timothy 5:23   Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

 

Jesus turned water into wine.

John 2:7   Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

 

Jesus ate and drank with the sinners, and his accusers were watching.

Luke 7:34   The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

None of the above refers to drunkedness,

And none of the above refers to sin.

 

However,

Regarding the Pastor;

 

1 Timothy 3:2   A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:8   Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

 

Sober means to not be drunk.  Don't have too much.  Do not be given to much wine,  means you can have a little.

 

Ephesians 5:18   And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

 

 

A little wine is ok, just not too much.

 

 

The Pastor’s immediate reaction to tell the informer off was righteous, because the "accuser" Satan and his children often do this,…. but after pondering on it for a while, the Pastor decided to appease the trouble maker’s concerns and making a sermon out of it.

 

Perhaps this created a sense of frustration for the pastor knowing that this problem existed in his congregation but he was not able to direct his concerns to the couple, so the whole congregation received a sermon on the topic and the unknown couple became an object lesson.

 

 

It does not say what the Pastor spoke of?  Did he give scriptures to say it was ok or not ok?, and used that couple as an example of doing nothing or something wrong?

How can we judge what he said if we don't know.

 

But later we are told;

 

Later, he was convicted that he should not even drink wine in the privacy of his own home, just in case by some chance someone would learn of it.

 

 

Whatever he spoke of, we don't know.  But later his talk convicted him. What he has decided to do in his own privacy is his choice, we can’t say it is right or wrong, he is doing what he feels is best and what he is willing to personally sacrifice,….. but he cannot outlaw drinking entirely within the church members, as the bible does not point this to sin, for even he knows in himself that Jesus did not have this burden placed on him. 

 

I cannot see the Pastor being in the wrong according to the information or lack of information given.

 

As for "the informer", she didn’t know the scriptures properly, therefore made an uninformed judgement and was in error by becoming "an accuser" with no spiritual grounds to support her.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I think these are all good answers so far,  hopefully, this will be a good basis to open up the topic a little further, I'd like to go into some of the spefic ideas you people have advanced.  I will likely, add the few remaing detail there are to the story, about this time tomorrow I would guess, and then see what other responses there are. I am thinking, that there may or may not be any further questions, becuase you guys are sharp enough you might answer all questions before I can ask them, what ever they might be, but It will be interesting to see what we can develop. Sorry for the mystery, but I didn't want to poison the well, again, you guys are pretty sharp! Thanks

[alien224]

1- this person assumed the couple was consuming alcohol.

2- This same person went running back to tell the pastor.

3- the pastor did not pray but changed his sermon because this person told him which caused him to become angry. Speak the truth in love, not anger.

[other one]

I would have gotten up and walked out of the church in the middle of the sermon.....    and likely not gone back.

 

You can take this scripture to crazy levels.

 

The context of this chapter is concerning food sacrificed to idols, not wine.

The Bible never tells us not to drink wine.....   says not to drink to access.

 

i'm fat.....   does that mean you should not eat donuts?            I don't think so.        You can take this to just about any level you want.

 

The people enjoying a bottle of wine did nothing wrong, but the preacher did....    He's twisting scripture out of context.

[Ezra]

Everything about this incident sounds "off". First of all, knowing it was a church event, no one should have brought alcolholic beverages (whether they drank privately is immaterial).  Secondly, if the pastor wanted to address the issue, he should have done it in private.  In brief, there was stupidity on all sides.

[Ezra]

i'm fat..... does that mean you should not eat donuts?

That's nobody's business, but since you bring it up, eat all you want but then burn off the calories.

[MorningGlory]

Everyone in this scenario behaved badly.  The couple for drinking alcohol, the unknown person who went to the pastor to tattle and the pastor for exhibiting frustration and berating the congregation.  I mean, come on, he didn't even know if it was true or whom he should be talking to.