could man enter heaven before Christ atonement

[MorningGlory]

 

What do you mean by Abraham's bosom is "only a parable"?

Hi bopeep

 

It's only a story.  An illustration to show us the moral of the story.  Read the story carefully boppeep, does it remind you of something?  Jesus used Abraham and Lazarus name only for the story, to illustrate.  Please read the story again and tell me what you think is the message.

 

Luke 16:19   There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20   And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21   And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22   And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23   And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:27   Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28   For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29   Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30   And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31   And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

I don't know about anyone else but this yellow font is nearly impossible to read with modifying it. 

[MorningGlory]

I am trying to identify the issues we must make a careful examination, collect all the informations, check scripture, see if there is a change, and what the change is and put to rest assumptiousness.

If we know that Jesus was the life and his life was the same as the life of God and he still had the life at the time of his death, and he was the only one with the life.

Then what every one else had at that time? The people of Israel, both those under the Law and those before the Law,

[strange Abraham who was before the Law, was the Lord of the Israelites not only of those before the Law but also of those under the Law]

They both went to the BOSSOM of Abraham.

.

 

Where do you read that Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom?  Chapter and verse please. 

[MorningGlory]

Jesus said to them, not only I give you life, but I will not leave you here, God has given to me the heavens as my inheritance. You will rise from here together with me and go to be with me in the heavens. Jesus fulfill his word, when he said: "the dead will rise first," from the captivity in the BOSSOM of Abraham and from the prisons of

Hade's, those who believe they rise up to the very high of heavens as we are informe to the heavenly promise LAND, or heavenly paradise.

There is scripture for every point I made: just ask for it, or search for it.

 

 

I think you are seriously mixing up Jesus in Hades after His death and Revelation.  Please quote chapter and verse for the above. 

[JohnD]

On the cross the thief said unto Jesus:

Luk 23:42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 

Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

Was it in heaven?

 

Since Jesus must first descend, and the thief was to be with Him in paradise that day, paradise was in Abraham's bosom. After Jesus was resurrected heaven was open, took those captive in paradise to heaven and now as Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren (Where were they at?), and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

Captivity in Abraham's Bosom.

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 

Eph 4:9  Now that He (Jesus) ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This was the paradise the thief went with Jesus to from the cross. It is now in heaven.

 

Ephesians 4:8–10 (NASB95)

⁸Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”

⁹(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?

¹⁰He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

 

1. The indication that Jesus' body was in the tomb (3 days 3 nights) but his Spirit was in Abraham's Bosom / Hades / Sheol for an undisclosed amount of time.

2. Jesus led the captivity (occupants of Abraham's Bosom) captive (from captivity) in his rising to heaven in Spirit in the same condition as the occupants of Abraham's Bosom (spirit).

3. The very same condition all believers henceforth have gone into heaven at the death of their bodies ever since.

 

2 Corinthians 5:1–8 (NASB95)

¹For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

²For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

³inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

⁴For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

⁵Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

⁶Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—

⁷for we walk by faith, not by sight—

⁸we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

 

4. Ephesians 4:8-10 took place in that 3 hour time frame between the death of Jesus (3PM) and the close of day (sunset / 6PM).

5. Paradise was always heaven / never was anywhere else.

[JohnD]

 

 

What do you mean by Abraham's bosom is "only a parable"?

Hi bopeep

 

It's only a story.  An illustration to show us the moral of the story.  Read the story carefully boppeep, does it remind you of something?  Jesus used Abraham and Lazarus name only for the story, to illustrate.  Please read the story again and tell me what you think is the message.

 

Luke 16:19   There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20   And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21   And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22   And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23   And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:27   Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28   For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29   Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30   And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31   And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

I don't know about anyone else but this yellow font is nearly impossible to read with modifying it. 

 

 

Agreed. Hard on the eyes.

[JohnD]

I am trying to identify the issues we must make a careful examination, collect all the informations, check scripture, see if there is a change, and what the change is and put to rest assumptiousness.

If we know that Jesus was the life and his life was the same as the life of God and he still had the life at the time of his death, and he was the only one with the life.

Then what every one else had at that time? The people of Israel, both those under the Law and those before the Law,

[strange Abraham who was before the Law, was the Lord of the Israelites not only of those before the Law but also of those under the Law]

They both went to the BOSSOM of Abraham.

They all had the rightsneounesh, God had require them to have, they had the blood line, the sircumsition, and later the holidays and the priesthood.

Now how about the rest of the people on earth, who are without any rightsneounesh from God.

or we may also include those Israelites that were cut off.

[an exception is made for some one at least]

What every one else, including the thief on the cross had in common? Excluding Jesus who had the life. THEY ALL HAD SPIRITUAL DEATH.

Now what would be the mission of Jesus immitiatly at the time of his death. The beginning of his descent from the earth to the very bottom of the earth, why Whould he descent to the very bottoms of the earth, what is his business to go there. Why he was not happy to go to Abrahams BOSSOM only?

Could be his mission was two fold.

First he must have gone to visit those who had received the promise, and were waiting for him.

Abraham had seen my day and rejoys. David also said he will not leave my shoal in Hates, he was also waiting, what about Jonh the Baptis, who met Jesus Christ at the Jordan river, who was before the Lord anouncing his coming, whom Jesus also sent before him to the BOSSOM of Abraham to his children to announce his coming there, what was there hope?

They were waiting for the Christ, what gifts the Christ had for them.

To Give them life and this time the eternal life, not the life he gave to ADAM in the beginning, but this time the eternal life, you can never be separated from God. Christ LIFE and Christ RIGHTSNEOUNESH. So to the next step.

Did Jesus stop there? Or he continue in his mission, let's think who else was waiting and hopping to see him? I guess many, but who was that very special one?

Who was that very special one who had died righteous ?

that was ABEL, what did you think Jesus forgot about him? What did he say, when Abel died? He is away from me (Abel been found with spiritual death) (the first captive, the first man to go to Hates. or Sheol.)

The Lord said the REVENCE is MINE I will take him back.

But to go to Abel he had to see every one else, not only ADAM, but also CAIN and every one else

If he indid died for all, that's it, if there is one Christ for all.

Jesus did not go there just to visit. He went there to bring the good news of the Gospel, every one must here the Good News and be judge according to the Gospel. Those who beleived received the eternal life --by faith--how else it is possible, they had no bodies. Not any possibility for works. Faith alone.

So Jesus preach the good news, the same way, when he was here on earth. I am the eternal life, and the resuraction when you beleive in me, you have the eternal life and the resuraction.

He first gave the Good News to his people who were captives in the bossom of abraham and in the prisons down under. all were under the same course, of the fallen adamic inheritance.

Jesus said to them, not only I give you life, but I will not leave you here, God has given to me the heavens as my inheritance. You will rise from here together with me and go to be with me in the heavens. Jesus fulfill his word, when he said: "the dead will rise first," from the captivity in the BOSSOM of Abraham and from the prisons of

Hade's, those who believe they rise up to the very high of heavens as we are informe to the heavenly promise LAND, or heavenly paradise.

There is scripture for every point I made: just ask for it, or search for it.

I well come your input.

 

Abraham is the father of faith. Romans and Hebrews makes this clear. And even before the Law of Moses God was trying to emphasize Grace is the way of salvation and the Law the way of condemnation / conviction.

[Your closest friendnt]

Dave said : Christ won't leave my soul in Seol Or Hades some place in the psalms 16:10 for thou will not leave my soul in Hades.

He descendent into the very deapts of the earth,

1st PETER 3:18 and 19,

18: For Christ also has once suffer for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, been put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison:

Isaiah 42:7, To open the blind eyes, TO BRING OUT THE PRISONERS from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house

Isaiah 42:9, Behold the former thinks are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them:

Isaiah 61:1.....to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.

Jesus said: Abraham show my day and he rejoices.

There some scriptures, I can find some more but tell me where you have difficulty connecting or what you understand about those matters so I will be able to help you have a break through.

[JohnD]

 

Jesus said to them, not only I give you life, but I will not leave you here, God has given to me the heavens as my inheritance. You will rise from here together with me and go to be with me in the heavens. Jesus fulfill his word, when he said: "the dead will rise first," from the captivity in the BOSSOM of Abraham and from the prisons of

Hade's, those who believe they rise up to the very high of heavens as we are informe to the heavenly promise LAND, or heavenly paradise.

There is scripture for every point I made: just ask for it, or search for it.

 

 

I think you are seriously mixing up Jesus in Hades after His death and Revelation.  Please quote chapter and verse for the above. 

 

 

Um, I think they are jumping ahead to the general resurrection when the dead in Christ will rise first and their spirits will descend from heaven (return with Jesus; see Zechariah 12:10 / 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55). This will not take place until Jesus returns to defeat the armies arrayed against the remnant of Jews in the Armageddon campaign (Revelation 14-16). The raising will be of the dead bodies from the earth (Romans 8:23). Since Jesus took the captivity captive from Abraham's Bosom, Abraham's Bosom has been empty ever since (if it even exists anymore Ephesians 4:8-10). The faith that used to send people's spirits to Abraham's Bosom in death now sends their spirits to heaven but just their spirit (2 Corinthians 5:1-8).

[JohnD]

Dave said : Christ won't leave my soul in Seol Or Hades some place in the psalms 16:10 for thou will not leave my soul in Hades.

He descendent into the very deapts of the earth,

1st PETER 3:18 and 19,

18: For Christ also has once suffer for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, been put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison:

Isaiah 42:7, To open the blind eyes, TO BRING OUT THE PRISONERS from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house

Isaiah 42:9, Behold the former thinks are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them:

Isaiah 61:1.....to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.

Jesus said: Abraham show my day and he rejoices.

There some scriptures, I can find some more but tell me where you have difficulty connecting or what you understand about those matters so I will be able to help you have a break through.

 

The Psalmist was speaking of Christ not David. David wrote it.

 

The writer of Acts even commented on it:

 

 Acts 2:27–31 (NASB95)

²⁷Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

²⁸‘You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’

²⁹“Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

³⁰“And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,

³¹he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.  

[Your closest friendnt]

I understand that Abraham was justified by faith, before the sircumsition and well before the law, but he had a requirement to meet that was added later, he must obey the sircumsition if not his justification will be taken away,

So now it is by faith and sircumsition , what if someone did not beleive and had the sircumsition, is it strange that he was still justified because of the blood line and the ritual of the sircumsition. I think so.

But Moses was the Lord of the Law. Why the children of the Law don't go to Moses BOSSOM and went to Abraham's BOSSOM.

That's interesting don't you think? I hope we are allow to think. Why Moses is never mention, I know now I have to say Aaron, just Moses because God said to Moses Aaron is going to be your prophet. We must observe these things.

About Moses any way I leave it like that , I thought it develops thought.