Was The fall of Lucifer/Satan;Before The Creation or After The Creatio

[missmuffet]

1) Satan does not have open access to God’s presence. He is summoned by God. 2) The visits are temporary. His time before God’s throne is limited. 3) In no way is the purity of heaven tainted by the brief, God-ordained presence of a sinful being, “quarantined,” as it were, by God’s regulatory power. And, 4) Satan’s access is only granted prior to the final judgment. After the judgment, God creates a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1), wipes away all tears from our eyes (verse 4), reveals the New Jerusalem (verse 10), and promises the complete absence of sin (verse 27).

When we say, “God cannot allow sin into heaven,” we simply mean that God cannot allow human beings who are still in their sin to live in His presence. But it is possible for God to command a sinful being to stand (temporarily) in His presence in order to commission him (Isaiah 6), to exact an account from him (Job 1-2), or to judge him (Revelation 20:11-15) without compromising His holiness.

God’s holiness will eventually consume all sin. Until that day, His holiness regulates sin, and that means that Satan, on certain occasions, is briefly summoned before his Creator to give an account of his actions.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-access.html#ixzz3gGkDfqoT

[Sister]

Jerry

 

has God created man before lucifer reblled,or the other way round

 

 

God is so sharp, nothing can escape what he already foreknows.

God knew even before man was created what was in Lucifer's heart.

So God set a trap for him in the garden where he placed man.

Once Lucifer could see that innocent Adam and Eve could be seduced,

he took that opportunity.

This is when what was inside Lucifer's heart was "performed".

This is the day "sin" was "born" physically and manifested.

 

No one can be charged for a crime that is in his mind only.

The crime has to be committed before he can be proven guilty.

When Satan tempted Eve, that first sin was committed.

From here it grows and spreads like a dangerous cancer.

 

So yes, man was there first, then Lucifer rebelled, (acted on his thoughts and intentions)

man being his first victim and first crime.

[D-Dawn]

There is some very "interesting" input on this thread. Yikes!

[xyluz]

There is some very "interesting" input on this thread. Yikes!

 

You read my mind... Dawn    ... 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Jerry1023,

 

I`ll just add my few thoughts.

 

1. The angels were created before man. "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?.......When the morning stars sang together, & all the sons of God shouted for joy? " (Job 37: 4 - 7) God is talking to Job & asking him does he know everything? "Where were you...."

 

2. Lucifer (Satan, the devil, the serpent, the dragon - all names describing some aspect of him) he was a king with a throne in the third heaven, plus a priest. He used to `trade` his wisdom, given by God for the praises of the other angels. That praise, for such wisdom should have gone to God but Lucifer took it unto himself & became proud. (Isa. 14 & Ezekiel 28)

 

3. And I would say that Lucifer fell after man was created as the place he was cast down to, would have had to have been created - the Universal area.

 

Marilyn.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Marilyn C

[other one]

assuming he has been cast down and not just removed from the throne room....

[1to3]

It is to my understanding

that

 

Satan tempted a 1/3 other angels to follow him.

so his sin-pride- began before he tempted Adam

it began in heaven? or on earth as Lucifer may have had right to both heaven and earth before his fall.

If his fall was in heaven then  the second heaven if the 3rd heaven is completely Holy and light were no sin can possibly exist (1John ch1)?

 

To be cast out of heaven ,

another place would have to exist for satan to be cast out and placed somewhere else?

Earth seems the logical place that satan has been cast down to from heaven

 

After sin entered Lucifer, God cast down  Lucifer now called satan and his angels now devils down to earth from heaven,(did nopt permit them back into heaven, the 3rd heaven that is HOLY.

 

Perhaps like it was said before,

after the earth was created and after Adam and Eve were created as when they were created all was still good, animals did not kill one another, Adam and Eve were vegetarians and so were the animals.

So satan would have been cast down to the earth after the creation of animals and man

 

 

after the pride of satan entered Eve through guile in the form of the serpent, and then Adam and then the rest of creation, paradise became lost.

 

Had Adam been alert and stronger than Eve to resist temptation, he would had told Eve to put that fruit down, as God had told Adam first about the Tree of knowledge of good and evil and then Adam told this to Eve.

 

◄ Genesis 1:21 ►

The Fifth Day: Fish and Birds
20Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens." 21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

 

 

◄ Genesis 1:27 ►

The Sixth Day: Creatures on Land
…26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."…

 

◄ Genesis 1:29 ►

 29Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

 

satan was still Lucifer not yet fallen  after the six day :

The Bible tells us that Lucifer was in Eden (which was created on day 6) and was still without sin on that day.

Ezekiel 28:13 (KJV)

“Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

 

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

 

Genesis ch2:1,4

1-Thus the heavens and the earth and all the host of them, were finished.

2- And on the seventh day God  ended His work which He had done,

and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

3- then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested

from all His work which God had created and made.

4-That is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day

that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens

 

 

Genesis 2:17

16-And the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.

17- but  of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat , for in the day you eat

of it you shall surely die.

 

 

in Genesis 2:17 God told Adam of the test. From there Adam told Eve. Than after the creation of Eve is created it is revealed that the devil is around taking the form of a serpent .Concluding that after Eve was created, satan was  cast out from Heaven  with the third of Heaven's angels.

 

so God informed Adam before even Eve was created of the consequence of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

 

Genesis 2:18

And then the Lord God said,"It is not good that man should be alone, I will make him a helper comparable to him.

 

19 Out of the ground the Lord formed every beast of the field and every bird o9f air, and brought them to adam to see what

he could call them. and whatever Adam called each living creature, that was  its name.

20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to  the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field.

But  for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

21

And the Lord caused a deep deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slep, and He took one of the ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.

22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man he made into woman, and He brought her to man.

 

After all this the temptation from satan came

 

When Christ was here as a man, he told His disciples about the falling of Satan from Heaven. Notice, He put it in the past tense, indicating that it already happened.

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18)

 

 

God cast satan down and let him possess a serpent, so it would be after  man and animals were created and living peacefully for a while as vegetarians. that satan was cast down to earth with the accessibility

of traveling the air principalities to enter and possess a serpent? Ephesians 6

 

After the temptation of man/woman all creation fell.

Killings began, animals and men began to kill in order to survive.

Pain, hard labor and sickness and death followed became the lot

of the now paradise lost that we live in.

From that point onwards

Gods plan of Mercy and Grace began and

God sent His only begotten Son to salvage us back to Him.

 

 

QUESTION?

 

Ezekiel 28:13 (KJV)

“Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

 

If Lucifer was allowed in the garden of Eden as mentioned in Ezekiel could he not have been the first one to succumb through his own pride to the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

And then be cast down to earth with 1/3 of the angels following suit and then tempt Eve and Adam?

Edited July 21, 2015 by 1to3

[missmuffet]

It all had to do with pride.

[RustyAngeL]

assuming he has been cast down and not just removed from the throne room....

Amen, When God does a work He does it thoroughly. 

[WilliamL]

Jesus said he saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning in Luke 10:18 which could easily have been an expression of a past event ...

Luke 10:17 KJV And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

"Saw/beheld": imperfect tense in the Greek. "The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action. Where the present tense might indicate "they are asking," the imperfect would indicate "they kept on asking." --BLB (Saw/beheld is past tense, which would be the Greek perfect, which this is not.)

 

"fall": Aorist participle in the Greek, i.e. "falling."

 

Translation: "I have been seeing Satan falling like lightning from heaven." Ergo, not a done deal at this time, but apparently the start of a process.