People are basically good, right?

[Guest shiloh357]

7 hours ago, Kan said:

I did not say men are basically good...

"So while all men are fallen and evil by nature, all men are touched by the gifts of God, and therefor are basically kept good. It just happens that sin is so degrading that life is ruined because of it, so that even paradise can be living hell with sin around."

There is a difference between being "kept good" by God and being "good." Only God is good.

And behavioral training does not make a child good, it just makes them well behaved. Nevertheless a child is generally better than an adult, because they are allowing more of the life of God flow through them uninhibited. That is why doing harm to a child, or trying to use them for personal gain is unforgivable. 

No, a child is not better tkan an adult.  Children will lie, steal, hit you, bite you, and children are selfish and unforgiving.  Values and manners are taught, and are not inherent in human nature.   A child left to his own, would grow up to be like an animal.

[Willa]

12 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

I think your right to a point Willa.  I always try and give people the benefit of the doubt and see if I can see the best in them.  Sometimes I find the good, sometimes not so much.

Rusty, I do the same.  But the Bible says that no man is good and only God is good.  I still look for things I like about people and want to believe the best.  This sometimes has made me gullible, so when I was a young christian I prayed for wisdom so that God would keep me safe and out of trouble.  Knowing my heart, He also gave me some discernment.  There are some people that He has warned me to avoid, that when I look into their eyes there is  a piercing coldness and darkness of pure evil; and when I look at their mouths they are twisted by hate or perversion.  There are others that, in spite of all, God has given me great compassion for them.  They are lost but God has moved me to reach out to them.  So I invest time in them, sow seeds, and sometimes money like a gift of a Bible.  Some are flatterers and I immediately suspect manipulation.  But I do try to look beyond the facade people present to see their need, as God does.  

God says that without Him our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked.  So we are forewarned.   Nowhere does the Bible state that people are basically good.

[enoob57]

25 minutes ago, Willa said:

Rusty, I do the same.  But the Bible says that no man is good and only God is good.  I still look for things I like about people and want to believe the best.  This sometimes has made me gullible, so when I was a young christian I prayed for wisdom so that God would keep me safe and out of trouble.  Knowing my heart, He also gave me some discernment.  There are some people that He has warned me to avoid, that when I look into their eyes there is  a piercing coldness and darkness of pure evil; and when I look at their mouths they are twisted by hate or perversion.  There are others that, in spite of all, God has given me great compassion for them.  They are lost but God has moved me to reach out to them.  So I invest time in them, sow seeds, and sometimes money like a gift of a Bible.  Some are flatterers and I immediately suspect manipulation.  But I do try to look beyond the facade people present to see their need, as God does.  

God says that without Him our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked.  So we are forewarned.   Nowhere does the Bible state that people are basically good.

Wanna know a good man... he will be broken about what he is now but rejoicing of what God will do for him after death and
a raging war exists within himself daily...  Love, Steven

[angels4u]

Apart from Jesus  we can do nothing (Jn.15)

. Mark 7:21-23: “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness." All these evil things come from within and defile a man”

So are there any good people? The Bible says "No"

“Preserve me, O God, for in You I put my trust. O my soul, you have said to the LORD, "You are my Lord, my goodness is nothing apart from You” (Ps 16:1-2). 

Only God is good :

Ps. 145:6-9: “Men shall speak of the might of Your awesome acts, and I will declare Your greatness. They shall utter the memory of Your great goodness, and shall sing of Your righteousness. The LORD is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The LORD is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works.”

Matthew 12:35

Verse Concepts"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

Matthew Henry Commentary
12:33-37 Men's language discovers what country they are of, likewise what manner of spirit they are of. The heart is the fountain, words are the streams. A troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring, must send forth muddy and unpleasant streams. Nothing but the salt of grace, cast into the spring, will heal the waters, season the speech, and purify the corrupt communication. An evil man has an evil treasure in his heart, and out of it brings forth evil things. Lusts and corruptions, dwelling and reigning in the heart, are an evil treasure, out of which the sinner brings forth bad words and actions, to dishonour God, and hurt others. Let us keep constant watch over ourselves, that we may speak words agreeable to the Christian character.

[Kan]

23 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

From your post above:  "Are people basically good? Yes, we cannot have a functioning world without basic goodness."

Goodness comes from God and is given freely to men, and there is far more goodness in the world than evil, that is why it can still have some functionality.

Pain often comes as a result of already having something good, and then having it go wrong. So the goodness of God is in the world, freely distributed in nature and for men, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

My post still shows that I did not make men good of themselves, but that they are upheld by God to be half decent.

 

 

 

[Kan]

17 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, a child is not better tkan an adult.  Children will lie, steal, hit you, bite you, and children are selfish and unforgiving.  Values and manners are taught, and are not inherent in human nature.   A child left to his own, would grow up to be like an animal.

Children mostly follow examples around them.

Jesus said "Unless you become as one of these little ones you will not enter heaven." 

A child is not evil and set in their ways as an adult who has developed their tendencies through many opportunities and choices against the Holy Spirit.

When a society denies the basic innocence and rights of a child it has gone past the limits of God's mercy.

[Kan]

16 hours ago, Willa said:

Rusty, I do the same.  But the Bible says that no man is good and only God is good.  I still look for things I like about people and want to believe the best.  This sometimes has made me gullible, so when I was a young christian I prayed for wisdom so that God would keep me safe and out of trouble.  Knowing my heart, He also gave me some discernment.  There are some people that He has warned me to avoid, that when I look into their eyes there is  a piercing coldness and darkness of pure evil; and when I look at their mouths they are twisted by hate or perversion.  There are others that, in spite of all, God has given me great compassion for them.  They are lost but God has moved me to reach out to them.  So I invest time in them, sow seeds, and sometimes money like a gift of a Bible.  Some are flatterers and I immediately suspect manipulation.  But I do try to look beyond the facade people present to see their need, as God does.  

God says that without Him our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked.  So we are forewarned.   Nowhere does the Bible state that people are basically good.

If people were not behaving themselves under the strivings of the Holy Spirit upon all men, then the world today would be in the condition when God will no longer strive with men, and all kinds of evil will come to fruition. That time has not yet come, but we are seeing an increase in crimes by people who have given themselves over to be controlled by Satan.

[Guest shiloh357]

57 minutes ago, Kan said:

Goodness comes from God and is given freely to men, and there is far more goodness in the world than evil, that is why it can still have some functionality.

Pain often comes as a result of already having something good, and then having it go wrong. So the goodness of God is in the world, freely distributed in nature and for men, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

My post still shows that I did not make men good of themselves, but that they are upheld by God to be half decent.

 

 

 

If goodness comes from God, then man is not "basically good."    The Bible never ascribes goodness to the world.  IN fact, Paul in Romans 3 makes the opposite argument from you.  Apparently, you don't understand what "basically good"  means.   When one says that man is basically good, it means that goodness is inherent in the nature of humanity.  But if you're argument is that goodness is external to man and must be supplied by God then goodness is not inherent to human nature and is supplied by God.

[Guest shiloh357]

47 minutes ago, Kan said:

Children mostly follow examples around them.

Jesus said "Unless you become as one of these little ones you will not enter heaven." 

A child is not evil and set in their ways as an adult who has developed their tendencies through many opportunities and choices against the Holy Spirit.

When a society denies the basic innocence and rights of a child it has gone past the limits of God's mercy.

Yes, they do.  But even good parents MUST instill values, manners and morals to their children.   If you leave a child with no training, they will not grow up to be anything but animals.  

Evil is part of human nature.   You have to teach a child to share, because children are naturally selfish.   You must learn selflessness, you must learn humility, you must learn honesty.    Those deep objective moral values and others are learned and taught.  They are not inherent to human beings and are not learned by example.  A child is quite evil and just as evil as an adult.   The difference is that an adult has less of an excuse.  

Children are not all that innocent.  None of us were all that innocent as children.  Adults wink at the temper tantrums and the biting and scratching and kicking and so on, because we expect children to behave in evil ways until they are sufficient age and have had sufficient time to learn how to behave.  

The fact that children default to their baser instincts and selfish behavior testifies against any claims to the basic goodness of humanity.

[Kan]

41 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, they do.  But even good parents MUST instill values, manners and morals to their children.   If you leave a child with no training, they will not grow up to be anything but animals.  

Evil is part of human nature.   You have to teach a child to share, because children are naturally selfish.   You must learn selflessness, you must learn humility, you must learn honesty.    Those deep objective moral values and others are learned and taught.  They are not inherent to human beings and are not learned by example.  A child is quite evil and just as evil as an adult.   The difference is that an adult has less of an excuse.  

Children are not all that innocent.  None of us were all that innocent as children.  Adults wink at the temper tantrums and the biting and scratching and kicking and so on, because we expect children to behave in evil ways until they are sufficient age and have had sufficient time to learn how to behave.  

The fact that children default to their baser instincts and selfish behavior testifies against any claims to the basic goodness of humanity.

Absolutely, but a child is innocent until he or she is aware of the issue at stake, and has made choices about it. One can only be guilty of sin with the knowledge of it. Sin can be committed in ignorance, but guilt does not apply, even though the consequences of sin come upon all who sin, regardless of their knowledge.

I know that there are arguments that sin is a condition which can be inherited with the guilt applied, but I disagree with that philosophy and don't want to go into it here.