WHO IS THE BEAST OR WHAT IS THE BEAST AND WHAT IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST?

[Montana Marv]

other one

Matt is the genealogy of Joseph (the Kingship line) back to Solomon of King David..  Luke is the genealogy of Mary a pure blood line back to Nathan of King David.  And then all the way to Adam.

Matt 1:17 says; Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to Christ.  Thus 42.  Shem to Abraham is 10 generations.  Total 52.

Here we see two different lines with two different generation numbers (52 for Joseph and 65 for Mary).  Let's work the the smaller (Matt account of Joseph).  Total of 52 to the Flood.  Now we have 18 more generations to account for over a 2,016 year period.  This would put each (begat or the son of) at 112 years old on the average.  It does not add up, since we have 3 to 4 new generations each 100 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[WilliamL]

You both presume -- without any support -- that these 70 generations are human generations, whereas everything in the context of the passage refers to angels and their offspring.

4 hours ago, other one said:

 I am not agreeing with William that Azazel is the king of the abyss....     Apollo is and that is a totally different entity.....    Azazel was put face down in the Egyptian desert with a darkness around him that will remain to judgment day according to 1 Enoch.  ...  

The name of the King of the Abyss in both Hebrew and Greek means Destroyer. Consider the following:

Enoch 8:9 And men being destroyed [by the crimes of the angels], cried out, and their voice reached to heaven. 10:11 All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret/mystery by which the Watchers have destroyed... 12 All the earth has been corrupted by the teaching of the work of Azazel. to him therefore ascribe the whole crime. 8:1 Azazel taught men to make swords, knives, [and] breastplates [that is, the implements of war], the fabrication of mirrors, the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of [face] paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows [that is, the implements of harlotry]... 2 Impiety increased, fornication multiplied, and they [mankind] transgressed and corrupted all their ways.

And yes, Azazel is to remain in the darkness of the Abyss until the time of God's Judgment. That judgment begins at the 6th Seal ("the great day of his wrath came," Rev. 6:17), and only after this is the Abyss opened at the 5th Trumpet. So  Enoch and Revelation are in agreement.

[other one]

Enoch does not say he is in the Abyss....    he is alone burried in the desert   It appears to me that you are stretching and putting things together that don't belong.

[WilliamL]

17 hours ago, other one said:

Enoch does not say he is in the Abyss....    he is alone burried in the desert   It appears to me that you are stretching and putting things together that don't belong.

Just a reminder:

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 ...God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...

wikipedia: "Tartarus, in ancient Greek mythology, is the deep abyss that is used ... as the prison for the Titans." The Titans were the cast down angels/deities according to Greek mythology. Therefore, I disagree that I am "putting things together that don't belong." Peter seemingly used the term Tartarus because it would have been more familiar to a Greek-educated audience.

What is your source that Azazel is buried alone in the desert, rather that cast into Tartarus/the Bottomless Pit/Abyss/depth of the earth?

 

[other one]

enoch

[Spock]

Interesting thread here. I'm doing my best to follow it all. I am about half way in and have to stop to write a few thoughts and questions for anyone to jump on:

1. Is Azazel the same person Rev describes as Abbadon or Apollyon in Rev 9 I believe, the dude who comes out of the abyss?

2. How could anyone not think the AC is a person? Daniel 11 seems pretty clear to me, this "man of intrigue..."

3. I'm seeing some people saying the 1260 days can also mean 1260 years and that this time period has already run: 538 AD through 1798, where Napoleon arrested the Pope and locked him up. During this time period, the Papcy killed and tormented many saints, and it is this time period, not the 1260 days in the GT that the bible references. Is this a true statement that some are holding to?

4. Wallid Shoebat is not a true Christian?

I will stop here. I look forward to seeing my points discussed or answered while I continue reading the thread.

Thanks,
Spock

[WilliamL]

26 minutes ago, Spock said:

1. Is Azazel the same person Rev describes as Abbadon or Apollyon in Rev 9 I believe, the dude who comes out of the abyss?

2. How could anyone not think the AC is a person? Daniel 11 seems pretty clear to me, this "man of intrigue..."

3. I'm seeing some people saying the 1260 days can also mean 1260 years and that this time period has already run: 538 AD through 1798, where Napoleon arrested the Pope and locked him up. During this time period, the Papcy killed and tormented many saints, and it is this time period, not the 1260 days in the GT that the bible references. Is this a true statement that some are holding to?

4. Wallid Shoebat is not a true Christian?

1. Yes. Rev. 9:11 And they had a king over them, the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in the Greek he has the name Apollyon. Both names mean Destroyer. This is the 8th king of Rev. 17 that ascends out of the Abyss, the current abode of fallen angels.

2. The Bible never uses the term "the Antichrist" to describe a man. Never. That is a doctrine of men, of churchianity. In Rev. 13, the Beast "is given a mouth," that is, a spokesman, and this one is a man.

Re: Daniel 11, everything in that chapter precedes the Great Tribulation, which clearly begins at 12:1. The Beast arises after the Trib.

3. The day-for-year approach to the 1260 days has its own validity as a type, but it is not the ultimate fulfillment.

4. As far as I know he is, but can't say more than that.

4

 

[Spock]

Thanks for the quick response William. I want to add, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts on this prophecy thread. This doesn't mean I agree with everything because I don't know what I believe anymore regarding end times prophecy (I can't believe I'm saying this after over 30 years of researching this too).

I think you are right though about the antichrist never being mentioned as a person in the scriptures. I believe the word is only used several times and as I recall, it does not refer to a single person only.

I guess "we" have associated the word AC with the words: man of lawlessness, the man of intrigue, the son of perdition, etc with that word (antichrist).

If Azazel is the same person called Abbadon or Apollyon in Rev 9, why wasn't Azazel used in Rev 9?

I'm still pondering your belief that Britain and USA are number 7 and number 8 of the 8 beasts. I have to be honest with you here- I don't "feel it" but I'm still thinking. (I know, feelings is not scriptural. Lol). I just don't see how these two have oppressed Israel to be considered a beast. I read your defense of that, but like I said, I'm just not feeling it.....

Thanks,
Spock

[WilliamL]

17 minutes ago, Spock said:

Thanks for the quick response William. I want to add, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts on this prophecy thread. This doesn't mean I agree with everything because I don't know what I believe anymore regarding end times prophecy (I can't believe I'm saying this after over 30 years of researching this too).

It took me just over 30 years to come understand why 6th Seal, pre-wrath, post trib is the only solution that is able to fit in all the Bible's End Time prophecies. Since then I have not been able to break it, and I am ruthless in attacking my own beliefs.

I think you are right though about the antichrist never being mentioned as a person in the scriptures. I believe the word is only used several times and as I recall, it does not refer to a single person only.

I guess "we" have associated the word AC with the words: man of lawlessness, the man of intrigue, the son of perdition, etc with that word (antichrist).

And therein lies the problem: the assumption that all the prophesied bad guys of the End Times are one man, when there are multiple players both man and angelic.

If Azazel is the same person called Abbadon or Apollyon in Rev 9, why wasn't Azazel used in Rev 9?

Azazel is a personal name, whereas Destroyer is a title, like Pharaoh or Satan.

I'm still pondering your belief that Britain and USA are number 7 and number 8 of the 8 beasts. I have to be honest with you here- I don't "feel it" but I'm still thinking. (I know, feelings is not scriptural. Lol). I just don't see how these two have oppressed Israel to be considered a beast. I read your defense of that, but like I said, I'm just not feeling it.....

Wrong guy: that is Blindseeker, not me. I disagree wholly with that view. The 8th head/king/mountain of the Beast is the Destroyer himself, the fallen angel-King who ascends out of the Abyss. Rev. 17:8-11

 

[Spock]

Oooops, me bad.  Sorry for my error. I read so much here the past two days, I got confused.   

Have you read any of Michael Fortner?  I just finished one of his books. Interesting perspective, making me think and question even more. 

Up until recently, I saw the rapture after the 6th seal, when God's wrath BEGINS. It seemed obvious to me that the raptured saints are there in Rev 7: 9-17.  This is the pre-wrath interpretation which makes sense- "we are not appointed unto wrath.." According to Paul in Thessalonians .  

Fortner sees the rapture at 7th trumpet, not 7th seal.  I'm not sure.  What are your thoughts on this?  Any thoughts, links, books would be appreciated. You can do by private email as well. 

 

Spock out