Sin is not imputed when there is no law

[Kan]

To say that before the ten commandments, that the law was not well defined or incomplete...I question that because

there are only as many laws as the fingers on your hands, and they are all basic to life. We find that ancient kingdoms had civil laws which reflected those simple principles.

The laws of God are the laws of life - the most obvious "thou shalt not kill" is conducive to protecting life.

The others follow, and show the necessary qualities of life, in order to survive and flourish. We learn these principles from a very young age, - territory, belongings, comfort, respect, fairness, and so on. we recognize our rights and that it helps not to violate someone else's.

It's true that the ten categorize and label them, but we can see that in principle, if we beak one, we break them all. They are all summarized as love.

And since love comes by the faith that God gives to all, no one has an excuse.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah were given an opportunity to repent before they were destroyed, when God rescued them from their enemies by Abraham. 

Some would like to argue that, these people were without the law and perished regardless of the law, or that they were not God's own but Abraham was. This is not true at all, they belonged to God, and therefor God had the right to end their misery in which they were headed. It was a termination of mercy, because they were so hideous that their own living standards were fast falling below the threshold of surviving, and they would have died the most horrible and drawn out death of a civilization. Besides all that, their existence caused poverty and suffering in neighboring cities, and their corruption was spreading to other relatively innocent societies.

If there were no law applicable to them, then they could not have been judged fairly. But Paul indicates that they were under natural law, the very needs of life expressing the law of God.

[Your closest friendnt]

To say that before the ten commandments, that the law was not well defined or incomplete...I question that because

there are only as many as the fingers on your hands, and they are all basic to life. We even find that ancient kingdoms had civil laws which reflect those simple principles.

The laws of God are laws of life - the most obvious "thou shalt not kill" is conducive to protecting life. The others follow, and show the necessary qualities of life, in order to survive and flourish. We learn these principles from a very young age, - territory, belongings, comfort, respect, fairness, and so on. we recognize our rights and that it helps not to violate someone else's.

It's true that the ten categorize and label them, but we can see that in principle, if we beak one, we break them all. They are all summarized as love.

And since love comes by the faith that God gives to all, no one is without excuse.

Sodom and Gomorrah were given an opportunity to repent before they were destroyed, when God rescued them from their enemies by Abraham.

 

Some would like to argue that, these people were without the law and perished regardless of the law, or that they were not God's own but Abraham was. This is not true at all, they belonged to God, and therefor God had the right to end their misery in which they were headed. It was a termination of mercy, because they were so hideous that their own living standards were fast falling below the threshold of surviving, and they would have died the most horrible and drawn out death of a civilization. Besides all that their existence caused poverty and suffering in neighboring cities, and their corruption was spreading to other relatively innocent societies.

If there were no law applicable to them, then they could not have been judged fairly. But Paul indicates that they were under natural law, the very needs of life express the law of God.

Brother Kan,

we don't urgew many of the things you suggest and we have roots  many of us to such ancient civilizations, 

the main point the scripture had to say that God himself did not punish them or will punish them for their sins that he left their sins unpunished, even when the Law was given he still left their sins ( Some times often unpunished), it was not a must punish situation all the time, 

repentance is a situation that leaves sins unpunished, the love of God his forbearance and Mercy, not an eye for an eye, paying the price and been punish for our sins, leave many sins unpunished. That time he had no right to punish Gentilles they were not his people and he did not want to be neither their God or their Judge. Of course they had their cultures to deal with and all people had their rules in their societies. 

And that time he did not have the option to say where everyone is going, and what will happen to them for more than one reason a) there was not heaven as a choice that time, and b) he was not made the judge of all yet, and c) ( I leave this for you to figure it out ), 

[Kan]

Brother Kan,

we don't urgew many of the things you suggest and we have roots  many of us to such ancient civilizations, 

the main point the scripture had to say that God himself did not punish them or will punish them for their sins that he left their sins unpunished, even when the Law was given he still left their sins ( Some times often unpunished), it was not a must punish situation all the time, 

repentance is a situation that leaves sins unpunished, the love of God his forbearance and Mercy, not an eye for an eye, paying the price and been punish for our sins, leave many sins unpunished. That time he had no right to punish Gentilles they were not his people and he did not want to be neither their God or their Judge. Of course they had their cultures to deal with and all people had their rules in their societies. 

And that time he did not have the option to say where everyone is going, and what will happen to them for more than one reason a) there was not heaven as a choice that time, and b) he was not made the judge of all yet, and c) ( I leave this for you to figure it out ), 

There is no partiality with God over sin and sinners. "For God so loved the world..."

The way that God has dealt with sin for the entire world, is the same across the board, there is no difference between believer and unbeliever, so far as the gift of God in Christ is concerned. He came to remove the guilt of sin from the world, to give hope through a measure of faith, to give a conscience which would set up a standard against Satan and temptations, (for no man is tempted above that which he is capable of resisting). etc. These gifts came through the promised Messiah, being applied to Adam through to the last born on this world. "Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world."

The knowledge of the Gospel hastens the will of God in the believer - to be in harmony with Him. 

None are punished for their sins, otherwise they would die as soon as they sinned. But the sins of this world have been borne by Christ. "on Him was laid the iniquity of us all," "By His stripes we are healed."

Yet we are caused to reap what we sow, in a measure determined by a merciful and just God, in order that we may observe and learn. This applies to all the world.

Jesus became the sin bearer for the world from the beginning of sin. "The lamb that was slain since the foundation of the world." The benefits of that relief is "unto all and upon all." The blood of Jesus is on the head of every man, "we are bought with a price."

On this basis, the Lord has every right to own and discipline all human beings, regardless of era or spiritual 'status' (which by the way, is universal -"for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"). "whomever the Lord loves He rebukes and chastens." He loves the world, therefor the world is chastened, in order that it may learn to seek the Lord and be saved.

Repentance does not leave sins go unpunished, however it saves the sinner from the wages of sin, which is death. King David repented of his sin for killing the husband of Bathsheba, but his life was followed with the dire results of his transgression, nevertheless God strengthened David, because he sought the Lord.

To say that the heathen were neglected because of their ignorance, goes against the grace of God, which declares that "where sin abounded, there did grace much more abound."

The heathen were treated by God as any human being is treated by Him, "For God is no respecter of persons."

 

 

 

[Kan]

I just wanted to confirm what we already know, that although we are all sinners in need of salvation, the opportunities to find the truth vary, so naturally God judges every individual according to the light they have received. 

In this sense, God "winks at the sins of ignorance in the past." The ignorant are only held accountable for what they know. This may sound like they get away with a lot of sin, but sin has fairly miserable results, which the heathen were not short of. Nobody gets away with anything really, and it is only by the grace of God that life is more abundant than it would be under the law. This grace has always resided over the world, both believers and unbelievers.

The advantage of believing is to reduce suffering caused by ignorance. "Without knowledge the people perish."

[Kan]

Did God give the law to Israel to increase their guilt?

If so, how is the law a school master to bring us to Christ?

The Jews were guilty in their consciences before they received the law, because when faced with the Red sea, they fainted and cried out as if they were going to die. Had they not just experienced God's deliverance from Egypt through signs and wonders? Yes, but the gods of Egypt had so long ruled them that they felt threatened, isn't that how the gods of the heathen operate - through intimidation?

Why was Mt Sinai so scary? 

Well, the gods of the heathen also caused the people to be indoctrinated to be presumptuous, which has no part in the covenant with God. So presumption and unbelief or fear go hand in hand. 

The giving of the law was to impress forever on the minds of the people, that safety can only come from trust and obedience to God. It reinforced their need for protection, and the need to be wary of presumption, the two extremes used by the enemy to destroy. Faithlessness and presumption. Sometimes the protection of God is not appreciated until we are faced with the law and its spiritual demands, because it is an expression of the righteousness of God.

But without God, the Savior, the Holy Law spells certain judgment and death to the sinner, it has no saving grace. But Jesus lived the law and so He fulfilled it. His life of obedience, and not just His sacrifice, stand in the place for the sinner, as a new record for them in their behalf. So not only are our sins forgiven and removed, but our lives are substituted by His life of obedience. His Life and sacrifice may be applied to us, that is caused to change us, by His third offering - the ministry of His Priesthood. 

The sacrifice of Christ is of no use, if Christ does not cleanse us of iniquity in our lives, that is the sole purpose of the gospel to raise people up and out of sin, and not to leave them unchanged and forever in sin. If not, then the law can never be fulfilled in us, as it was in Jesus. 

In this light, the Christian is not just a saved object, but a dynamic example of God's righteousness.

 

 

[Littlelambseativy]

From the beginning, Adam and Eve had a law. Thou shalt not eat of the tree... They broke God's law and suffered the consequence....cast from the Garden. They found themselves naked, and the first sacrifice of an animal, by  God. Then sacrifice was ofered and a murder..another consequence...from the beginning man has known right from wrong yet chose to follow wrong. God has placed in each man's heart the knowledge of right and wrong. With the coming of Jesus came freedom from the laws and sacrifice .. forgiveness if one asked.

[Righttruth]

On 11/21/2015, 4:15:29, Pamelasv said:

1 Romans 5:13

'for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.' 

Well, what do you think of this?  I am thinking of God judging all those nations who didn't have the law.  Not sure what he means by this. 

Man came to learn what is good and bad after eating the forbidden fruit. So he is accountable whether he is aware of the Law or not.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Righttruth

[Pamelasv]

5 minutes ago, Righttruth said:

Man came to learn what is good and bad after eating the forbidden fruit. So he is accountable whether he is aware of the Law or not.

Great point!

[Omegaman 3.0]

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.  From Romans 2, but I suggest you read the whole chapter!

[Your closest friendnt]

On 30 November, 2015 9:18:17 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.  From Romans 2, but I suggest you read the whole chapter!

I am trying to put this scripture into perspective, and I can mot say that I can. 

"all those people", is making a referrence to a group of what people?

"sin", what would be considered sin to them.

And "perish" , what am I suppose to think, when I read this word. 

I need to have some clarification to relate to the meaning of the above Scripture.