DID YOU CHOOSE GOD ! ,OR DID HE ALREADY CHOOSED YOU ?

[ghtan]

5 hours ago, other one said:

Ah, but he can fix his oops.....

Ha! Ha! I like it! (Not saying I agree though)

[other one]

1 hour ago, ghtan said:

I am already in conversation with Shiloh on this. You are most welcome to join in.

I've been here way too long to do that...

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, ghtan said:

So I am right - this is the only text you have to support your case! Well then the choice before us is either:

A. We insist the date of Jesus' return was already fixed in Mk 13:32 even though that compromises Jesus' deity for not knowing something that God should know, and it also makes him contradict himself because both in John 5:20 and 16:15 he indicated he knew everything God knew.

Or:

B. Believe that the date is one of those things God had not fixed - since you admit God has not fixed all future events - and accept the NKJV reading of Acts 1:7, thus upholding Jesus' deity.

Which is the better option? I think it is a no-brainer.

(Btw, the NKJV reading is also reflected in the Douay Rheims bible and the Darby bible, among others. Those are also quite literal translations.)

 

 

 

It's not the only text I have.  It's the only text that is needed to make the point that Jesus return is fixed in the future.   You are simply not competent to properly exegete the passage and you are looking for any possible way to get around it, instead of believing it.   You should try actually believing the Bible instead of trying to weasel your way out of what it says.

You're still wrong because you are don't understand the interplay between the humanity and deity of Jesus while he was operating in his earthly ministry.  It doesn't compromise Jesus' deity at all that He didn't know the fixed date of His return at that time.   That Jesus voluntarily operated under a limited prerogatives didn't mean that he was any less God.  It simply agrees with what Paul said in Phil. 2:5-11

There is not one translation you can use that will support your incompetent handling of Acts. 1: 6-7, including the translation you cite.   This is not as much a translation issue as it is an issue of your unwillingness to come to grips with the plain meaning of Scripture.

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, ghtan said:

Who are we to tell God what he should or should not fix? If God wants to leave a major event open, that is his prerogative. In the case of Acts 1:6-7, I have covered that in a separate post.

Who is telling God what he should or should not fix??   I am simply reflecting what the text in Acts 1:6-7 really says, whereas you are unable or unwilling to come to grips with the text.

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But I do agree with you that God does not let things just come together on their own. He does have targets but his targets need not always be dates. In the case of Jesus' return, he has another type of target in mind. It is when "the full number of Gentiles has come in" (Rom. 11:25). God wants the number of Gentile believers to reach a certain number and then he will turn back to the Jews and bring history to a close.

When the full number of Gentiles come in, is up to God.  He has set that number.   He is not waiting for that to happen.  God decides when our time is up.   God always operates in the fullness of time.   Everything regarding the major events of Scripture like the return of Jesus, establishment of the millennial kingdom, the day of judgment, all of that is fixed in time.   God has a plan and everything is headed to the end of that plan.

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WHEN that target is reached depends on us. That is why no date is fixed for Jesus' return. Hence Peter can tell his readers to "hasten the coming of the day of God" (2 Peter 3:12). You cannot hasten Jesus' return if the date is already fixed!!

We don't speed up the coming of the Lord.   The word for "hasten" as it is used here in the Greek means to "eagerly desire."   Again, you are not very good a exegesis, obviously and as I said earlier, you are letting your theology drive your interpretation.   You have an agenda to mold the Bible around what you want it to say, instead letting Scripture speak for itself.

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But the good news implied therein is that it means God has not predetermined who will be saved. It means EVERYONE has a chance to be saved! God is merciful!

God has not predetermined who will be saved, but he has predetermined how long man has to respond to the message.  It's like standing at the airport and trying to decide whether or not to book a particular flight.   If you wait to long, the decision will be made for you.    There is a fixed date when the doors of grace will close, not because God has run out of patience but because man has run out of time.

[ghtan]

On 12/1/2015, 12:31:17, ghtan said:

WHEN that target is reached depends on us. That is why no date is fixed for Jesus' return. Hence Peter can tell his readers to "hasten the coming of the day of God" (2 Peter 3:12). You cannot hasten Jesus' return if the date is already fixed!!

20 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

We don't speed up the coming of the Lord.   The word for "hasten" as it is used here in the Greek means to "eagerly desire."   Again, you are not very good a exegesis, obviously and as I said earlier, you are letting your theology drive your interpretation.   You have an agenda to mold the Bible around what you want it to say, instead letting Scripture speak for itself.

I hope you were not deliberately trying to fool readers with your claim. Although the greek word speudo can mean ‘eagerly desire’, the correct translation must reflect its normal usage in the NT. The word appears 5x elsewhere in the NT and it ALWAYS means ‘to hasten’. I dare you to show where else in the NT it means 'eagerly desire'.

Unsurprisingly then that the VAST MAJORITY (I assume rare exceptions) of English bibles also translate it as ‘hasten’ in 2 Peter 3:12. Even your favourite ESV does so. Obviously, translators recognise that this is the correct meaning here.

I reiterate: it would be impossible for us to hasten the return of Jesus if the date of his return were already fixed.

Edited December 2, 2015 by ghtan
grammar

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, ghtan said:

I hope you were not deliberately trying to fool readers with your claim. Although the greek word speudo can mean ‘eagerly desire’, the correct translation must reflect its normal usage in the NT. The word appears 5x elsewhere in the NT and it ALWAYS means ‘to hasten’. I dare you to show where else in the NT it means 'eagerly desire'.

Unsurprisingly then that the VAST MAJORITY (I assume rare exceptions) of English bibles also translate it as ‘hasten’ in 2 Peter 3:12. Even your favourite ESV does so. Obviously, translators recognise that this is the correct meaning here.

I reiterate: it would be impossible for us to hasten the return of Jesus if the date of his return were already fixed.

There is a little thing called context and I am exegeting the text correctly.   I don't care how the word is used in other passages.  It doesn't matter how it is used in other passages.  All that matters is how it is used in the context of II Peter 3: 11-14.   To use it in a manner that suggests we can speed up the return of Jesus doesn't fit the context of Peter's message.   Peter is talking about our character and the kind people we should be.

The verse should only be understood this way:  "Looking for and eagerly awaiting the coming the Lord..."   Nothing in that chapter and nothing anywhere in the Bible ever suggests that we can speed up the return of Jesus.   Rather it is not about us hastening or speeding up the timing of Jesus return.  Rather the idea is that we hasten unto it diligently and eagerly.

I am not a slave to the ESV.   I don't agree with any translation 100%.  I use a wide variety of translations because they all have strengths and weaknesses.  I take my time to exegete the passage properly.   You, evidently, have some kind of agenda, and it shows in your complete lack of competence in handling the text. 

Jesus' return is fixed and that is the only correct position to take on this.  I am right and you are wrong.

[Kan]

I can't remember any texts that say that God knows when He will return. But if Jesus said He does not know, He is telling the truth, even as the Son of God and equal to God.

And if He says that only the Father knows due to His decision...then that is so.

How can God not know something? Because He can choose not to know something. "Their sins will I remember no more." is a fact, not just words.

"I know ye not, depart from me ye evil doers" is a fact, not just words. They can only be a fact with a God who means what He says. 

We say "forgiven and forgotten," ...hardly...

God does not have a mind which wanders, and is undisciplined or subject to hormones like us.

What is more, if He says something, it becomes a fact the moment He utters it, because even the universe is made and established by "the word of His mouth." God's word is living and creative, powerful, everlasting, wisdom, and once spoken it stands forever, it cannot be revoked or diminished over time. etc.

If we find that difficult to understand, we ought to save the moment when we see Him face to face and ask.

In the meantime we have a pretty intense moment between the Father and the Son as our representative to God, the fate of the world hangs in the balance at this time. If it was not for the humanity of Christ, pleading in our behalf, the world would have been terminated a long time ago, because of the ridiculous barrage of iniquity, vanity and suffering...in heaven and on earth.

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Kan said:

I can't remember any texts that say that God knows when He will return. But if Jesus said He does not know, He is telling the truth, even as the Son of God and equal to God.

And if He says that only the Father knows due to His decision...then that is so.

How can God not know something? Because He can choose not to know something. "Their sins will I remember no more." is a fact, not just words.

"I know ye not, depart from me ye evil doers" is a fact, not just words. They can only be a fact with a God who means what He says. 

We say "forgiven and forgotten," ...hardly...

God does not have a mind which wanders, and is undisciplined or subject to hormones like us.

What is more, if He says something, it becomes a fact the moment He utters it, because even the universe is made and established by "the word of His mouth." God's word is living and creative, powerful, everlasting, wisdom, and once spoken it stands forever, it cannot be revoked or diminished over time. etc.

If we find that difficult to understand, we ought to save the moment when we see Him face to face and ask.

In the meantime we have a pretty intense moment between the Father and the Son as our representative to God, the fate of the world hangs in the balance at this time. If it was not for the humanity of Christ, pleading in our behalf, the world would have been terminated a long time ago, because of the ridiculous barrage of iniquity, vanity and suffering...in heaven and on earth.

From a human perspective, Jesus could return at any time.   God always operates in the "fullness of time."   The Bible says that Jesus came at the right time. Jesus died at the time He chose to die, not a minute too soon or too late.   God has a plan and He is working that plan out in the world.  The notion that He doesn't know when Jesus will return is just silly and shouldn't be taken seriously because it would mean that God is not sovereign and that he is just as much a prisoner of linear time and just as much a prison to the present as we are.

[RustyAngeL]

I believe He knew me before the foundation of the world was laid.  However He also gave me free will.  Yes He knew my choice then but I was still allowed to make that  choice. 

[other one]

1 Tim 2:1-7

2 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
NASB

Actually God chose all of us.....    but some said no, others were not listening or for those who never heard the gospel, some just were not watching.