Rapture

[LMR]

Thanks everyone for all the scriptures it is much appreciated!! I will search these out and study them. 

[MorningGlory]

25 minutes ago, LMR said:

Thanks everyone for all the scriptures it is much appreciated!! I will search these out and study them. 

You will be glad you did, LMR.  There is a section for each: the PreTrib, MidTrib and PostTrib Rapture theories.  They're in the Prophecy Forum under Eschatology. 

[LMR]

Thanks I appreciate that, I am actually a little confused with all the information but will do a lot of studying on this subject. Thanks MorningGlory.

[MorningGlory]

6 minutes ago, LMR said:

Thanks I appreciate that, I am actually a little confused with all the information but will do a lot of studying on this subject. Thanks MorningGlory.

[SINNERSAVED]

11 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

 

This is not meant to be a complete commentary on 2 Thes. 2. Instead, I want to demonstrate that Paul had to have taught the Thessalonians that the rapture of the Church would precede the End Times judgments.

By most accounts Paul stayed in Thessalonica for only about 3 weeks and during that time he founded a Church and taught them the doctrines of salvation and sanctification, the Trinity, the nature of man, the assurance of pardon, and the Day of the Lord. He continued teaching them after he left with his first letter, written from Corinth in 51 AD, in which he introduced the doctrine of the rapture (1 Thes. 4:16-17).  Shortly after that they received another letter appearing to be from him, announcing that the Day of the Lord had come.   They reacted with fear and confusion and immediately sought clarification.

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy report or letter supposed to have come from us saying that the Day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” (2 Thes 2:1-3)

From Paul’s response it’s clear the letter they were concerned about had been a forgery, sent by someone pretending to be him and designed to frighten them.  It worked.  The Greek words for unsettle and alarm literally mean to agitate, incite, and frighten. Something in the letter had contradicted their understanding of his teaching and they were upset. Reading 2 Thes 2:1-3 we see that the forgery must have disputed Paul’s teaching on events leading up to the Day of the Lord.  This is the only logical explanation for his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.

Notice that right from the beginning Paul separated the coming of the Lord from our being gathered to Him. That’s because they’re two different events.   We can’t tell their relative timing from this, but we can tell they’re not the same thing.  The Second Coming is when He comes back down to Earth to be with His people here, while from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 we know the rapture has us going up to meet Him in the air and continuing to Heaven to be with Him there (John 14:2-3). The 2nd coming will be witnessed by everyone (Matt. 24:30), but the rapture is an instantaneous disappearance of believers only (1 Cor. 15:51-52) that happens without warning.

The quote above is from Romans 15:4.  It tells us that Paul wasn’t just writing to the Thessalonian believers.  He was also writing to us.  Think about it. The Day of the Lord is a term that always refers to the End Times and most often to the Great Tribulation. If Paul had taught them to expect a post-tribulation rapture would they have been agitated and frightened upon receiving the forgery?  No!  It would more likely have made them think the 2nd coming was only a few years away and many of them would live to see it.

The only justification for their fear and confusion would be if Paul had taught them a pre-trib rapture. In that case a letter telling them the Day of the Lord had come would mean they had missed the rapture, and that would mean they weren’t saved.  Now we can see how they would be agitated, angry and afraid. Imagine how you would you feel in a situation like that.

From 2 Thes 2:1-3 we can begin to construct Paul’s teaching on the chronology of events leading up to the Day of the Lord. Remember, there’s an abundance of proof from his other letters showing that Paul taught the doctrine of eternal security, aka once saved always saved.  Some of the most obvious references are Romans 8:38-39, 2 Cor 1:21-22, 2 Cor. 5:5, Ephes. 1:13-14, and Ephes. 4:30.  In all of them Paul taught that true believers cannot fall away from faith for any reason.  He said the Lord guaranteed our inheritance and sealed the Holy Spirit inside us as a deposit.

But Paul spoke of a rebellion (falling away) in 2 Thes 2:3 that would have to precede the Day of the Lord.  The Greek word translated rebellion is apostasia, from which we get apostasy.  It means people would abandon something they once considered themselves to be part of and the context implies that it’s the church.  You can’t fall away from something unless you first think of yourself as being part of it.   But true believers can’t fall away at all.  Therefore this rebellion or apostasy has to involve those who thought of themselves as being part of the church, but weren’t really saved.

Don’t be confused about this.  We see believers-in-name-only leaving traditional churches to join the Emerging Church all around us, but rebellion is as much attitude as it is action and they don’t think they’re rebelling against God.  They see themselves as still being in the Church.  In fact they think they’re the best part of it.  Far from being rebellious, they call themselves followers of Christ, not just believers in him, and doers of the word, not just hearers.  They’re not sitting in Churches on Sunday listening to the same tired old messages on sin and salvation and coming forward to be born again.  No.  They’re out there in the world, thinking they’re changing it for Jesus.

These advocates of the so-called social gospel don’t realize it’s not what you do for the Lord that matters, it’s what you believe He’s done for you.  The only work the Lord requires of us is that we believe in the one He sent (John 6:29).  That means to believe God chose to send His Son to Earth to die for our sins so we can choose to live with Him in Eternity (John 3:16).  The righteous work of a thousand lifetimes will not suffice in place of this belief.

When these believers-in-name-only discover the true Church has disappeared while they’ve been left behind, that’s when they’ll rebel against God and join the other side.  By the time the anti-Christ makes his claim to deity, the whole world will follow him (Rev. 13:8) and they’ll be right in the forefront.

The End Times According To Paul:

"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thes. 2:4) After the rapture and the falling away of believers-in-name-only into His world-wide counterfeit religion, the anti-Christ will be revealed for who he really is by proclaiming himself to be God.  Remember, the sequence Paul gave was first the apostasy, and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming (2 Thes. 2:7-8).

Here Paul confirmed this sequence, saying a restrainer is currently holding things back.  After the restrainer is taken out of the way the anti-Christ will be revealed.  This restrainer is the Holy Spirit, sealed within the Church.  After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be out of the way, the rebellion will take place, and the anti-Christ will be revealed.  These things can’t happen until the church is gone.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.  For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness (2 Thes. 2:9-12).

Most likely, the anti-Christ will already be known as a great statesman and leader, but by declaring himself to be God he’ll be laying claim to Planet Earth. This claim will kick off the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-21) and will be accompanied by all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders that will deceive those who have fallen away into thinking they have finally found the truth. But in reality they will have rejected the truth and embraced a lie.  At the end of the Great Tribulation the Lord will return to over throw the anti-Christ and destroy him by the splendor of His coming and those who believe the lie will perish as well.

In his letters to the Thessalonians Paul didn’t reveal the actual timing of the Rapture except as it relates to other events. It may be one of the things he was forbidden to speak about (2 Cor. 12:4).  All we know is for reasons of His own the Lord has never given us a specific date for the rapture.  But by carefully studying passages describing it and maintaining the view that the Bible cannot contradict itself, the astute believer can obey the commandment to “know the times and seasons” and construct with some assurance the correct sequence of events. Paul criticized the Thessalonians for not figuring this out back then (2 Thes 2:5) and would even more strongly criticize the church today for the same reason.

Here Paul confirmed this sequence, saying a restrainer is currently holding things back.  After the restrainer is taken out of the way the anti-Christ will be revealed.  This restrainer is the Holy Spirit, sealed within the Church.  After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be out of the way, the rebellion will take place, and the anti-Christ will be revealed.  These things can’t happen until the church is gone.

 you say that the restrainer is the holy spirit of the church and until they are out of the way the lawless one is able to do what he wants, ?

I have to say , and its my thought that the restrainer, is the arch angel ,when he stands up Michael, then is everything go crazy, but if the antichrist will have 42 months to over come the saints, they are still being killed , while he is here, the church has gone no where ? so the holy spirit is still with in the true believers, anmd we are told by Jesus when you see the abomination of desolation, standing where it ought not, then flee .    so we are still here to witness this ,and the elect are not gathered until the second coming of the lord, in the clouds,  so how is this possible, we don't get out of here even when the antichrist comes, we may be kept safe, or we may face our end ,in tribulation, but the saints are still here ,let no man deceive you for if they say he is here, or there do not believe for as the lightning comes from the east to the west so shall it be at the coming of the lord, and then we are taken prior to the wrath of God ,

if I am wrong please correct me, ? but this is how it is layed out in the bible  and biblically as it should unfold. I am willing to take any opposition to this view. thank you

[Marilyn C]

Hi SINNERSAVED,

 

When you separate what Jesus has said to the people of Israel concerning their future, & what Jesus has said to the Body of Christ, then it will become very clear.

 

Happy studying, Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Here Paul confirmed this sequence, saying a restrainer is currently holding things back.  After the restrainer is taken out of the way the anti-Christ will be revealed.  This restrainer is the Holy Spirit, sealed within the Church.  After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be out of the way, the rebellion will take place, and the anti-Christ will be revealed.  These things can’t happen until the church is gone.

 you say that the restrainer is the holy spirit of the church and until they are out of the way the lawless one is able to do what he wants, ?

I have to say , and its my thought that the restrainer, is the arch angel ,when he stands up Michael, then is everything go crazy, but if the antichrist will have 42 months to over come the saints, they are still being killed , while he is here, the church has gone no where ? so the holy spirit is still with in the true believers, anmd we are told by Jesus when you see the abomination of desolation, standing where it ought not, then flee .    so we are still here to witness this ,and the elect are not gathered until the second coming of the lord, in the clouds,  so how is this possible, we don't get out of here even when the antichrist comes, we may be kept safe, or we may face our end ,in tribulation, but the saints are still here ,let no man deceive you for if they say he is here, or there do not believe for as the lightning comes from the east to the west so shall it be at the coming of the lord, and then we are taken prior to the wrath of God ,

if I am wrong please correct me, ? but this is how it is layed out in the bible  and biblically as it should unfold. I am willing to take any opposition to this view. thank you

I agree.  It does seem ludicrous to give instructions to people who won't need them.   The church is clearly present during the great tribulation.

• After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.....Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”  I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:9,13-14

If the rapture happens before the great tribulation, where does this great multitude beyond number come from?  There is zero biblical support anywhere for some kind of "great revival".  That idea, along with "tribulation saints" was conjured out of necessity in an attempt to make the pre-trib seem plausible.  The truth is that just the opposite is true.  Those days will be deceptive and lead to apostasy, not very fertile ground for a "great revival".

• And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.  Matthew 24:4-5
• Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  2 Thessalonians 2:8-10

The church will in no way be a restraint to the man of sin.

• It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  Revelation 13:7
• He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  Daniel 7:25

How can those who have been given into his hand, and who he will overcome, be a restraint to him?  That makes no sense, especially when putting forth the "great revival" argument at the same time.

Let me see if I got this right, the "pre-trib saints / Holy Spirit" make up the "A" team which can restrain evil / Satan but the great revival "multitude beyond number tribulation saints / Holy Spirit" make up the "B" team and they aren't able to?  How does anyone take the pre-trib notion seriously?

Remember, God is not going to fulfill prophecy by our consensus.  If you truly want to know, go with what the Bible plainly says, not what you want it to say.

[WilliamL]

Amen to most all of that, particularly the last sentence. As far as the second section of quotes in blue, the caveat is that those quotes are post-rapture, and refer to the earthly Israelite Church:

Zech. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

This takes place when Jesus appears in the clouds to take up the elect of his Church:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest/remnant of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God -- [that is, the original 10 Commandments of YHWH's marriage covenant with Israel] -- and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What these passage show us in sum is that those of Israel who have been "blinded" to the truth that Yeshua was and is their Messiah (Rom. 11:7, :25ff.) will 'see the light' when he appears to all people in the clouds to take up the elect of his Church. Although it will be too late by then for these sons of Israel to ascend with the elect, they will be instantly converted to the faith, and become the earthly Church/ecclesia, the born-from-above, End Time remnant of Israel. These are the saints who will be persecuted during the 1260 days of Rev. 13's Mouth of the Beast = Dan. 7's Little Horn. These will be, or will contain, the 144,000 Israelites sealed in their foreheads of Rev. 7:1-8 and 9:4, who will later be called up before the throne after the 1260 days of "Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:6-7):

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.  ... 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders...

-- the last sentence clearly showing that they are now in heaven, before the heavenly throne of God.

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Here Paul confirmed this sequence, saying a restrainer is currently holding things back.  After the restrainer is taken out of the way the anti-Christ will be revealed.  This restrainer is the Holy Spirit, sealed within the Church.  After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be out of the way, the rebellion will take place, and the anti-Christ will be revealed.  These things can’t happen until the church is gone.

 you say that the restrainer is the holy spirit of the church and until they are out of the way the lawless one is able to do what he wants, ?

I have to say , and its my thought that the restrainer, is the arch angel ,when he stands up Michael, then is everything go crazy, but if the antichrist will have 42 months to over come the saints, they are still being killed , while he is here, the church has gone no where ? so the holy spirit is still with in the true believers, anmd we are told by Jesus when you see the abomination of desolation, standing where it ought not, then flee .    so we are still here to witness this ,and the elect are not gathered until the second coming of the lord, in the clouds,  so how is this possible, we don't get out of here even when the antichrist comes, we may be kept safe, or we may face our end ,in tribulation, but the saints are still here ,let no man deceive you for if they say he is here, or there do not believe for as the lightning comes from the east to the west so shall it be at the coming of the lord, and then we are taken prior to the wrath of God ,

if I am wrong please correct me, ? but this is how it is layed out in the bible  and biblically as it should unfold. I am willing to take any opposition to this view. thank you

I don't participate in debates about the Rapture. Nor whom the "Restrainer" is. I simply supply supporting scriptures, in context. Everyone can therefore come to their own conclusions.

[Montana Marv]

Last Daze

It is the Holy Spirit who seals us, He indwells us. 1 Cor 6:11 - But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.  This is the three fold ministry of the H.S. We do not have a seal of God on our forehead as in Rev 9:4.

This great multitude which comes out of the great Tribulation are all flesh and blood.  (see Zech 8:23)  Also look closely at this multitude which comes out of the Great Tribulation, they had to wash their robes.  These also are the one's who will be ruled with a rod of iron by Christ.

The Holy Spirit has done the work for us as those in Christ.  We need to wash nothing.

I would say those given into his hand in Rev 13 as tribulation Saints will be (Mormons, J.W.'s and others which we may consider as "Christian Cults")  They failed at their first attempt to reach Christ, they may get a second chance, but it cost them dearly.

In Christ

Montana Marv