Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Retrobyter]

On January 26, 2016 at 7:25 AM, OldSchool2 said:

What's obvious is that you're not a Trinitarian, which means you can't be a Christian.

So what religion are you?

Shalom, OldSchool2.

Excuse me?! Just who do you think you are?! "Being a Christian" is NOT SYNONYMOUS WITH "being a Trinitarian!" You need to be VERY careful with your wording and your logic! And, quit being judge, jury and executioner!

Okay, let's simmer down for a moment and look at the claim: "Being a Trinitarian" is someone who believes in the THEOLOGICAL position that God exists as a Trinity; that is, that God is comprised of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. But, what do the SCRIPTURES say? Not all "creeds" (things in which to believe) are trustworthy because not all "creeds" are taken directly from the Scriptures. Many are invented by the composite of various interpretations of a certain few verses of Scripture, and those interpretations themselves are suspect. Each of the Scripture verses must be seen in its context, and then one must investigate whether the composition is valid.

Now, what does "being a Christian" mean? It does NOT mean "being a Christ-follower," as some think. NOR does it mean "being a good-as-Christ person." But, I think you know all this. "Being a Christian" is one who has been justified by the Messiah of God as Yeshua` said in Luke 18 and as described in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

Romans 4:16-5:2
4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
KJV

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he (God) hath made him (the Christ) to be sin for us, who (the Christ) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Christ).
KJV

Interestingly, the words translated "reconciled," "reconciliation," and "reconciling" are variations of ...

NT:2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'); from NT:2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
KJV - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

NT:2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so); from NT:2596 and NT:236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
KJV - reconcile.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, substituting these words in place of "reconciled," etc., we get ...

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath exchanged places with us by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of changing places mutually;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, personally exchanging places with the world, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of changing places mutually.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, exchange places with God.
21 For he (God) hath made him (the Christ) to be sin for us, who (the Christ) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Christ).
KJV

Thus, we, in spite of our sins, have been made into God's RIGHTEOUSNESS (found in the Messiah), and, in spite of His righteousness, the Messiah was made into our SIN! THAT'S the "exchange." It wasn't fair, but it WAS just! That "exchange" makes it possible for us to be justified by God, in spite of our sins. However, carefully observe who did what in that exchange! Yeshua` (Jesus) USED TO BE the Word, but the "Word was made flesh" - a body, the person who was named "Yeshua`!" He IS the "Son of God." We have lots of references to that effect; HOWEVER, we have NO references to Him being called "God the Son!" They DO NOT EXIST! 

Therefore, a person can have the faith of Avraham and "be a Christian," without necessarily "being a Trinitarian!"

 

[OldSchool2]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, OldSchool2.

Excuse me?! Just who do you think you are?! "Being a Christian" is NOT SYNONYMOUS WITH "being a Trinitarian!" You need to be VERY careful with your wording and your logic! And, quit being judge, jury and executioner!

Okay, let's simmer down for a moment and look at the claim: "Being a Trinitarian" is someone who believes in the THEOLOGICAL position that God exists as a Trinity; that is, that God is comprised of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. But, what do the SCRIPTURES say?....

This is what scripture says:

"Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.  With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

^"Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God....'" (Acts 5:1-4)

And how logical is it for Christians to contradict their own Nicene and Apostles' creeds? Further, in English there's a difference between acting Christian, and being one.

[JTC]

What a waste of time reading this thread was. 

[other one]

1 hour ago, JTC said:

What a waste of time reading this thread was. 

finally something I can completely agree with....   

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, inchrist said:

It took a while to sink in the earth wasn't flat 

Yeah, and it will take almost as much time for it to sink in that the Universe is not billions of years old, too.

 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, JTC said:

What a waste of time reading this thread was. 

 

1 hour ago, other one said:

finally something I can completely agree with....   

Shalom, JTC and other one.

Why is that? Is it because of the monopolizing of inChrist's pseudoscience or OldSchool2's narrow mindedness on Trinitarianism?

The POINT of this thread is to establish that the word "heaven" or "heavens," taken from the Hebrew "shaamayim" in the OT or from the Greek "ouranos" in the NT, should simply be rendered "sky" or "skies," because THAT IS TO WHAT THESE WORDS REFER!

The bottom line is that we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven when we die." We are to be anticipating the RESURRECTION, specifically the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES!

[Retrobyter]

6 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

AND ((in agreement with the WORD)) while we are still yet alive, TODAY, we EAGERLY WATCH for the return of Yeshua Messiah, King Jesus,  LONGING FOR HIM every day , right ? 

------------------------------------

ABSOLUTELY! What good would a "Millennium" be without Him?!

[simplejeff]

We have already seen what one or two thousand years without Him is like ..... wars, killing, greed, deception, pollution, drugs, adultery, lying, carnal politic and economic and religions, very great oppression wide-spread, ... ... ... evil far beyond our comprehension ! 

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

ABSOLUTELY! What good would a "Millennium" be without Him?!

 

[OldSchool2]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shalom, JTC and other one.

Why is that? Is it because of the monopolizing of inChrist's pseudoscience or OldSchool2's narrow mindedness on Trinitarianism?....

How "narrow minded" is the Nicene Creed?

"... We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified...."

Other than the Apostles' Creed, it's likely "the most universally accepted and recognized statements of the Christian faith".

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, simplejeff and all.

I was just thinking: That's why Gentile Christians are NOT going to "fly off to Heaven" while Christ is reigning here on this earth for a THOUSAND YEARS! He must rule and reign for a thousand years, subduing His enemies, one by one if necessary, until there's only one enemy left that stands in His way - death. And, Yeshua`, God's Messiah to be King, has been promised to the children of Israel for a VERY LONG TIME now! God ALWAYS keeps His promises!

One day soon, He'll not just be the "Christ," or God's Mashiyach (Messiah), God's Anointed to become King; He shall BE haMelekh Yisra'el (the King of Israel)! 

Then, throughout the Millennium, Yeshua` shall become the King over other nations as well, a King over kings and a Master over masters! There shall be NO government of men untouched by the need to be part of His Kingdom!

They shall either be subdued by the World Emperor, Yeshua`, or they will ASK to become a part of His Kingdom! That's the point of several of the Kingdom parables of Matthew 13!

Matthew 13:31-33
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV

In the parable about the mustard seed, He is simply saying that His Kingdom will start out quite small by comparison to other nations; however, it will grow until it is the GREATEST Kingdom, providing refuge for those who humbly come to Him.

In the parable about the leaven, the "three measures" is relatively unimportant. It's just a large amount of bread dough. And, the small amount of leaven or leavening agent, such as yeast, added to the wheat seems at first to go unnoticed; however, eventually, it affects the WHOLE lump of dough! THAT'S the way His Kingdom will work in the Millennium. The INFLUENCE of His Kingdom will eventually be complete!

Matt 13:44-46
44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
KJV

In these parables about the Kingdom (i.e., during the Millennium), first we are told that the Kingdom from the Sky is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man discovers the treasure, he keeps the information "under his hat" until he has bought the plot of ground where he found it, so that the land - and everything on it - is his! That's the way it will be for those who discover the true value of the Kingdom of Israel! They will protect that information until they have secured that Kingdom for themselves.

In the parable about the MERCHANT MAN (not the pearl), it's reversed: The KINGDOM is like the merchant, making wise investments in pearls that he can re-sell for a tidy profit. When the merchant (i.e., the King, the head of the Kingdom) finds a "pearl of great price" - that is, a very valuable pearl, like a black pearl, for instance - He will be able to liquidate His assets and buy it, always coming out on top in the transaction!

The Millennium, or the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom of Israel, will not be a "time of peace," except for King Yeshua`s Kingdom. The world will be in a time of international turmoil and uncertainty - a time of conflict.