Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[other one]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Hmmm...

If you've ever seen the old movie The Last Starfighter, picture Grig shrugging and vocalizing, "Nyehh...." While true, that only makes the whole string theory more questionable. The string theory, even some of the theories on quarks, are PURELY theoretical! While an exercise in logic and mathematics based on certain assumptions, I think we need to get back to the basics and review the assumptions.

when you do that then everything ends up as a mystery.

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, other one said:

when you do that then everything ends up as a mystery.

Shalom, other one.

"Mystery" is just another word for "secret." Isn't God allowed to have some?

[coheir]

Ecc 8

17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

This is still the rule. man is not going to find out.

[Your closest friendnt]

53 minutes ago, coheir said:

Ecc 8

17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

This is still the rule. man is not going to find out.

The one who wrote this he must have thought of himself very high. Or so to speak. And he must have come something that he did not learn from other people, and he has not met all other people that were contemporaries to him to find out how much they know.

Any way the wisdom of this man is kindergarden stuff comparing to what we understand today. 

And I know that he is not the Christ and we can learn from his mistakes, from his wisdom wich we don't need today, and perhaps something from his paranoia.

And I don't want to mention something about Jesus Christ who is our wisdom in spiritual matters, and no only that, but also in our lifes He is our light and our Guide. 

Many things of spiritual guidance have come out his too much wisdom, and just to comfort some of his unbelieving wifes. 

Not everything spiritual matter he touch reflects the truth of Jesus Christ. In these matters I follow Jesus Christ, and the disciples.

Where he is in conflict I prefer Jesus who has come from above, and has all the wisdom of God.

Anyway you know more math than him. And you could teach him how to drive a car. And tell about the things beyong the sun. And the travels in the space. I am sure that he would feel very lacking your knowledge. And you have the blessing not to go to the captivity of the children of Abraham, or not in the place of the Gentiles. waiting for Jesus Christ to take them out from there  We have the Blessing of Jesus, we do not need the blessing of Abraham. Are you kidding me.

Thank you and Jesus bless

 

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The one who wrote this he must have thought of himself very high. Or so to speak. And he must have come something that he did not learn from other people, and he has not met all other people that were contemporaries to him to find out how much they know.

Any way the wisdom of this man is kindergarden stuff comparing to what we understand today. 

And I know that he is not the Christ and we can learn from his mistakes, from his wisdom wich we don't need today, and perhaps something from his paranoia.

And I don't want to mention something about Jesus Christ who is our wisdom in spiritual matters, and no only that, but also in our lifes He is our light and our Guide. 

Many things of spiritual guidance have come out his too much wisdom, and just to comfort some of his unbelieving wifes. 

Not everything spiritual matter he touch reflects the truth of Jesus Christ. In these matters I follow Jesus Christ, and the disciples.

Where he is in conflict I prefer Jesus who has come from above, and has all the wisdom of God.

Anyway you know more math than him. And you could teach him how to drive a car. And tell about the things beyong the sun. And the travels in the space. I am sure that he would feel very lacking your knowledge. And you have the blessing not to go to the captivity of the children of Abraham, or not in the place of the Gentiles. waiting for Jesus Christ to take them out from there  We have the Blessing of Jesus, we do not need the blessing of Abraham. Are you kidding me.

Thank you and Jesus bless

 

LOL! You DO know that the "one who wrote this" was Shlomoh (Solomon), right? God not only gave him wisdom, but He also gave him REVELATION and INSPIRATION! "Kindergarden stuff?" I don't think so. God revealed to Shlomoh this truth which he then passed on to us.

We don't need his wisdom (given to him by God Himself) today? There's something fundamentally wrong with that mentality and attitude.

"Knowledge" is what you are talking about; it's the accumulation of facts, in whatever field they may be.

"Wisdom" is best how to USE that knowledge in a godly way! Let me give you a simple "for-instance": I've done some flagging in my work history, and know how to best use the "SLOW/STOP" paddle to get people's attention. I can't always thank everybody who comes by, but I make the effort to do so. It's important to me because respect is important to all! I smile and say, "Thank you," thanking them for (1) obedience to the STOP or SLOW sign, (2) for paying enough attention to make a FEINT at slowing down or stopping, or (3) for not hitting anybody or any equipment as they BARREL THROUGH THE WORK ZONE! Sometimes, it's downright comical to watch people's reaction to a flagger! You'd be surprised how many people will immediately reach for the seatbelt they're not wearing, although flaggers have absolutely NO authority to even give a ticket!

Others who are barely trained with the paddle will try to FORCE compliance to the rules! No one can MAKE anyone else do what is right. Flaggers who expect to be obeyed and try to exert their "authority" are fooling themselves, and some I've watched come very close to blows in confrontations!

In reality, all one can do as a flagger is REQUEST obedience to the signs. If the driver obeys, great. If the driver fails to obey the signs, he is only risking his life, the lives of those with whom he comes in contact through the work zone, and his own well-being should he damage equipment, his own vehicle, the vehicles of others, or the property of those living in the vicinity of the work zone. How bad would one feel if he or she was responsible for injuring a worker? How much of his income or savings will he or she have to spend out of pocket if they are sued and/or have his or her insurance premium increase from such an accident? An even worse thought is this: How bad would one feel if he or she KILLED someone?

Knowledge is just knowing when and how to turn the sign paddle to help protect all involved in the work.

WISDOM is realizing that one is just a servant entrusted with the protection of others. THAT is what Shlomoh knew and exhibited:

1 Kings 3:16-28
16 Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.
17 And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.
18 And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.
19 And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.
20 And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.
21 And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.
22 And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.
23 Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living.
24 And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king.
25 And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.
26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.
27 Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof.
28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.
KJV

1 Kings 4:29-34
29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
31 For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
32 And he spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five.
33 And he spake of trees, from the cedar tree that is in Lebanon even unto the hyssop that springeth out of the wall: he spake also of beasts, and of fowl, and of creeping things, and of fishes.
34 And there came of all people to hear the wisdom of Solomon, from all kings of the earth, which had heard of his wisdom.
KJV

1 Kings 10:1-10
1 And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the LORD, she came to prove him with hard questions.
2 And she came to Jerusalem with a very great train, with camels that bare spices, and very much gold, and precious stones: and when she was come to Solomon, she communed with him of all that was in her heart.
3 And Solomon told her all her questions: there was not any thing hid from the king, which he told her not.
4 And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the house that he had built,
5 And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her.
6 And she said to the king, It was a true report that I heard in mine own land of thy acts and of thy wisdom.
7 Howbeit I believed not the words, until I came, and mine eyes had seen it: and, behold, the half was not told me: thy wisdom and prosperity exceedeth the fame which I heard.
8 Happy are thy men, happy are these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and that hear thy wisdom.
9 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice.
10 And she gave the king an hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen of Sheba gave to king Solomon.
KJV

1 Kings 10:23-25
23 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.
24 And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
25 And they brought every man his present, vessels of silver, and vessels of gold, and garments, and armour, and spices, horses, and mules, a rate year by year.
KJV

Matthew 12:42
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
KJV

Luke 11:31
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
KJV

Revelation 21:22-26
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
KJV

If you cannot appreciate the wisdom of Shlomoh, I hope you can appreciate the wisdom of Yeshua` haMashiach (the "Christ"), a greater (wise person) than Shlomoh.

I should also have added that this is the reason for the parables about the "kingdom of heaven" or the "kingdom from the sky":

Matthew 13:31-32
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
KJV

Matthew 13:44
44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
KJV

Matthew 13:45-46
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
KJV

The first talks about the GROWTH of Yeshua`s Kingdom after He arrives on earth.

The second talks about the VALUE one will place on Yeshua`s Kingdom when one discovers its amazing King!

The third talks about the ECONOMIC WISDOM of the KING HIMSELF!

[Retrobyter]

On February 15, 2016 at 11:49 AM, other one said:

If you are going to only look at the Bible and ignore everything around you, I think there is little for us to discuss

Shalom, other one.

I'm not ignoring everything around me, but the extra dimensions that you claim exist are not visible to us. They are only "present" in SOME interpretations of particular experiments and in the mathematics applied to what the interpreters see. I just feel that things went horribly awry since the Michelson-Morley experiments of 1881 to 1887. Did NOBODY think about the speed of the medium vs. the speed of the wave? Are we SURE that they were measuring the correct one?

Regarding Albert Einstein, we KNOW that he was indeed a genius. However, a man can only do the best he can do with what he has to work with. If he was given false premises to start with, how do we know that he arrived at correct solutions, especially in the case of General Relativity?

Let God be true and EVERY man a liar. (Romans 3:4)

Have fun with the math, if that's what you like to do, and have fun with the imagination! However, I prefer to use my imagination with the facts given me in the Scriptures.

There's a LOT to understand in the Scriptures. For instance, how does the size of the New Jerusalem and the size of the New Earth affect one's belief about the shape of the city? Many have believed that the city will be a cube, based on the common interpretation of the word "foursquare." However, if one discovers that the New Jerusalem will land upon the New Earth, how is a city 12,000 furlongs (1,500 miles) in length, width, and height affected by a New Earth that will probably have similar dimensions to the current earth, namely 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator?

I believe that one will discover that the verse actually says,

Revelation 21:16
16 And the city LIETH foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
KJV

That is, the city covers a square AREA. Now, what does that look like with lengths of each of the four sides of the city being 1,500 miles? How does the curvature of the earth affect that "square area?" How does a "cube" fit with the base of the city on this "square area?"

This is more interesting to me than the former.

[other one]

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

That is, the city covers a square AREA. Now, what does that look like with lengths of each of the four sides of the city being 1,500 miles? How does the curvature of the earth affect that "square area?" How does a "cube" fit with the base of the city on this "square area?"

This is more interesting to me than the former.

Remember that the old earth and old heavens are destroyed and gone away and you are describing the new heaven and new earth so we have no idea if we are in the same dimension or if any of the physics we presently know even exists....   You really can't in my mind compare the old with the new, for a city that is a 1500 mile cube makes no sense at all in our present world

We will have new bodies that may not be anything like what we have now.

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, other one said:

Remember that the old earth and old heavens are destroyed and gone away and you are describing the new heaven and new earth so we have no idea if we are in the same dimension or if any of the physics we presently know even exists....   You really can't in my mind compare the old with the new, for a city that is a 1500 mile cube makes no sense at all in our present world

We will have new bodies that may not be anything like what we have now.

Shalom, other one.

Remember that the old "earth" and the old "heavens" are the old "ground" and the old "skies."  They do NOT represent the total destruction of the universe! They do NOT represent a change of dimension or the change in any of the physics we presently know!

We've been given the formula for comparison by Peter himself: A : B :: B : C. (Read "A is to B as B is to C.")

A = the earth and its skies before the Flood
B = the earth and its skies after the Flood and before the Fire
C = the earth and its skies after the Fire.

Just as the earth and its skies did not change drastically in mass or the fundamental chemical compounds through the Flood, so they will not change drastically in mass or the fundamental chemical compounds through the Fire. Furthermore, we know that the majority of the mass of our planet was UNAFFECTED by the Flood during Noach's day. Only the surface of the earth, the biosphere of this planet, was affected by the Flood. So, too, the majority of the mass of our planet will be LIKEWISE UNAFFECTED by the Fire prior to the GWTJ. Only the biosphere of this planet will be affected by the Fire. The core and the mantle of this planet remain unaffected since the Creation.

Also, consider this: Did Yeshua` have the new body that He was to have and shall have throughout eternity after His resurrection? I believe that HE DID!

What do we know about that body?

Luke 24:1-53
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

So, He is and ever will be "living."

6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs (about 7.5 miles).
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

So, He can disguise Himself at will.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ (the Messiah) to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

So, He can disappear at will.

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. (That's NOT Peter; it was the OTHER "Simon," the Zealot.)
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

So, He can appear at will, as well.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost).
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

He has hands and feet, He could be handled, and He has flesh (muscles) and bones.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat (food)?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

So, He could eat food and ate fish and honeycomb.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven (into the sky).

So, He rose into the sky at His ascension, although that was probably by His Father's power, as opposed to His own.

52 And they worshipped him (they bowed the knee to Him), and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
KJV

So, although there were some notable differences in His power, He could be recognized and handled; He could eat food, and He had muscles and bones. Thus, His body was not so very different than His original body, at least in appearance.

1 John 3:1-5
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
KJV

1 Corinthians 13:11-13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
KJV

And, we shall be like Him and shall know (Greek: ginooskoo, in Spanish: conozco [conocer], not se [saber]) even as we are known.

Remember SIBKIS: See it big; keep it simple.

So, I should add, you're right. A 1,500-mile cube makes no sense at all. HOWEVER, a 1,500-mile PYRAMID can and does.

[other one]

it is simple to me.....  heavens is plural.....  .....   everything  ......

 

You can't have a 1500 mile anything on earth, it's physically impossible with the physical laws that exist here.

[Kan]

On 3/24/2016 at 1:13 PM, other one said:

Remember that the old earth and old heavens are destroyed and gone away and you are describing the new heaven and new earth so we have no idea if we are in the same dimension or if any of the physics we presently know even exists....   You really can't in my mind compare the old with the new, for a city that is a 1500 mile cube makes no sense at all in our present world

We will have new bodies that may not be anything like what we have now.

The new incorporates the old. This is especially true about our bodies, the old will "put on" the incorruptible and immortal. 

Spiritually - Jesus took our human nature and united it with the divine character making a new man of the two. The old mind is renewed in Christ, and the old body will be resurrected and renewed by the Same. Our identity from birth is never removed, but honored and resurrected in the new.

At this renewal our old no longer exists, because it is changed at the return of Christ, in the "twinkling of an eye" or in a split second.

The old earth will be changed by the same fire which burns it up. The fire of God is life or destruction depending on what stays and goes.

Spiritually - the wrath of God would kill us, but only destroys sin in our lives and produces a new life because of the intercession of Christ.

Our lives are like light bulbs which have no electricity running through them, but what a difference it makes. So our body, without the power of the resurrected Christ, is dying and is powerless compared to what it will be. God does not change the instrument or globe, but just runs the power of eternal life through the old, and it becomes a new thing altogether.