Spock Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 25 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said: I am not bothering, it has already been shown in posts you have read, and you can google it, or read commentaries online, but you have already decided it seems, so stick with it if you like, I am through with this topic, it is a dead horse, the spirit has left it's body behind. I could argue this both ways, if you want to continue this line, point out that Jesus said God can destroy both body and soul in Hell. I can tell you do not agree with my conclusions here but you are not rolling up your sleeves and debating, bro. You are using what I call "guerilla warfare tactics" just firing a shot here or there. Come on bro, take a scripture either Shar or I have posted supporting our position and tell me what you think God intended that to mean. You wont hurt my feelings if you disagree. Besides, the only way I can feel better about my doctrines is to have them tested and tried. Now put away the rifle and come out with the grenades,. Lol spock ps may I suggest you start with my gray cells post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegaman 3.0 Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted January 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Spock said: I can tell you do not agree with my conclusions here but you are not rolling up your sleeves and debating, bro. You are using what I call "guerilla warfare tactics" just firing a shot here or there. Come on bro, take a scripture either Shar or I have posted supporting our position and tell me what you think God intended that to mean. You wont hurt my feelings if you disagree. Besides, the only way I can feel better about my doctrines is to have them tested and tried. Now put away the rifle and come out with the grenades,. Lol spock ps may I suggest you start with my gray cells post? Okay Spock, since you have directly challenged me, I will respond one more time, and though I may not have any grenades, I will give it some effort, but I really am tired of the topic, and I have probably already run out of rifle ammunition, sorry if it was insuffient. So this is the last post for me here, so, I would appreciate it, if you would no longer reply to me directly, and just make you comments on the topic, not in answer to things I have said here. I know you are just a Vulcan, and have superior logic to the rest of us, but your Jedi mind tricks will only work this once. I am taking your stance, that it is not that important, what ever Hell is, we do not want to go there, nor do we have to, so it is a bit of a non issue. I probably lack the gray matter to respond convincingly, it is obvious that your logic is superior, but I will try to muster up some other shades than gray. You asked "why would God" . . . I have mentioned this in other posts on other topics, that my approach to scripture never starts with "why would God". I am not smart enough to understand the mind of God that well, that is why he instructs us. He tells us "what" but not always "why". I do not want to limit what He can and will do, by imposing my limited understanding or knowledge on Him. You spoke of God as though it makes no sense for Him to put people into the lake of fire, when He already had a perfectly good Hell to torture them in (your idea, not mine). Are you sure that the Lake of Fire is some temporary place for permanent destruction? Consider this: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." So, are you trying to say, that day and night, for ever and ever means that the beast and false prophet (both who are people I think) are just there tempoarily? Or are you saying that those who join them, do not share their fate? I am not sure I am following your logic, am I missing something. I apologize, if I lack the gray matter. I am just a simpleton, but I sort of perceived the idea of eternal torment. You had asked about my notion of death as separation. On the day you eat of it, you will die. (Gen 2:17) Either God lied, or death is something other than the body no longer breathing. There is the death in Ecc 12:7, Isa 59:1-2, Rev 21:8, Rev 22:14-5, Rom 6:2, 11, Heb 7:26, Rom 7:4, 1 Cor 7:19 Besides the word death, these all have something in common, they all have to do with separation between things, body and spirit, man and God, believers and sin, Christians and the law, husband and wife. Sometimes one has to open one's eyes to read between the lines. Not every doctrine or idea in the bible, is spelled out for us in exact wording. We get the concept of the trinity, for example, and some other doctrines, from the Bible, without adding to it, but by seeing what is in it. Not everything is even supposed to be clear, but it IS accessible to those to whom it is revealed. Jesus Himself spoke in parable, to hide things from those, for whome it was not given to know. Consider James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. You can, if you look, sort of see almost a definition there, and equation, two times in fact. The body without the spirit, and faith without works, both equal death, both involve separation (Greek word "choris", if you want to look it up sometime. Remember the prodigal son? His father said of his son, that he was dead, now he is alive. We know, and the father knew, that the gone had gone away, yet it is spoken of as death, when it was only separation. I would go one, but that is what I expect you to do. This idea, this equivalence of death and separation, actually permeated the Bible. Similarly the idea that knowledge in the Bible does not only mean intellectual awareness, but intimacy. Adam knew his wife, Josheph knew Mary, Jesus said of some in a parable, :depart from me, I never knew you". Are we to suppose that Jesus was unaware of their existence? Sorry if that was a bit off subject of death and Hell, eternity and all of that, but I wanted to illustrate that sometimes, one needs to look and the spirit of the word, not just the letter of the word. Not everything is laid out for you, as if for a 5 year old, some of it take more insight, than logic my friend. I should probably question Shar at this point also, who said: "The Second Death in Rev 20. The greek word used is "thanatos", which literary means death. Cease to exist. " That looks are first glance, to be very similar to a trick that the Watchtower would use, regarding Greek. Yes thanatos does mean death, thanatos does not mean "cease to exist, not in modern Greek, not in Classical Greek, not in the Koine Greek of the Bible. My wife died in 2014, but she did not cease to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks omega man, here is one place we interpret things differently, which perhaps can be resolved: i see that passage in Rev 20:10 where the three bad amigos go is NOT to the lake of fire as you believe, but rather to the lake of burning sulfur. Two different places. We have to start there. Lets check it out, study the Greek words, and get back. I believe Shar already did that, but I will recheck it too. Later. spock resting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 14 minutes ago, Cletus said: I wasnt going to hard on it because I know the truth. here goes a little bitty bit for you and all who think Hell is temporary: The Greek phrase, aionas ton aionon is translated forever and ever, and it occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end and is in reference to infinity. Some are used to describe Jesus In 1 tim and revelation 5. other places its used in eternal damnantion. In revelation 14:11 the phrase is aionas aionon which literaly means ages of ages.... Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Any one who thinks the bible says hell isnt forever has not studied enough. Do a more in depth study and you will know Hell is without end for those who wouldnt accept Jesus as their savior. So what happens to hell when it is thrown into the lake of fire? First of all, why was it even thrown into the lake of fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Im not trying to make this a cop out, but for anybody out there who is unsure about this topic and would like to go deeper, here is an article that supports a temporary hell that actually answers just about all the verses the forever hell camp brings up to support their position. I can write this stuff myself, but what the heck, it is right there, and better written....if you are interested. http://www.remnantofgod.org/hellfire.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2016 18 minutes ago, Spock said: \ i see that passage in Rev 20:10 where the three bad amigos go is NOT to the lake of fire as you believe, but rather to the lake of burning sulfur. Two different places. What Scripture backs up what you said here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Spock said: WOk, let's use our gray cells people: a lostie is thrown into Hades (hell) awaiting the great white throne judgment. While here, he is being tormented. I think we all agree with this. ok, now here comes the Great white throne judgment and after being judged guilty, where do they go? Into the lake of fire. They have now gotten out of hell, and shoved into the lake of fire. I think we all agree with this too. so, why not shoved back into hell if they are to be tormented forever? Why not just go back and stay there, in hell? Answer: because God does away with hell and throws it in the lake of fire. For what reason folks? i say to get rid of it....poof, gone, see ya. If you say to keep on burning, then why be put here? Why not back in hell? The lake of fire is different folks. Hell is where there is torment, not the lake of fire. Even Satan, antichrist, and false prophet go into a different place - the lake of burning sulphur according to rev 20:10. Why is this a different place? Here is the only eternal place of torment after the GWT judgment. So why doesn't God shove the losties into this place- the lake of burning sulfur if he wants their torture to be eternal? Gray cells folks....use them. Please think before you speak. Spock out Spock, your pathetic attempt at condescension is pretty lame. Now why don't you go use YOUR alleged brain cells and READ THE BIBLE. Your views are not Scriptural at all. Opinion does not a Bible make, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,992 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,690 Content Per Day: 11.78 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2016 13 minutes ago, MorningGlory said: Spock, your pathetic attempt at condescension is pretty lame. Now why don't you go use YOUR alleged brain cells and READ THE BIBLE. Your views are not Scriptural at all. Opinion does not a Bible make, my friend. Read the Bible and actually take it literally? What a unique thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 40 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said: Read the Bible and actually take it literally? What a unique thought Take the bible literally. Hmmmm. Let's start with this..... "the wages of sin is DEATH!" ok, let me see.....what does death literally mean? Hmmmmm i guess literally, it must mean "eternal tormenting", right peep? How did I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 30, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 MG, pleasant dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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