The beast that goes into Perdition

[thereselittleflower]

3 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Lexicon :: Strong's H6754 - tselem

צֶלֶם

Transliteration tselem	Pronunciation tseh'·lem (Key)
Part of Speech masculine noun	Root Word (Etymology) From an unused root meaning to shade
Dictionary Aids TWOT Reference: 1923a
KJV Translation Count — Total: 17x The KJV translates Strongs H6754 in the following manner: image (16x), vain shew (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?] image images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods) image, likeness (of resemblance) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend) צֶלֶם tselem, tseh'-lem; from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew.
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon     Lexicon :: Strong's H1823 - dĕmuwth דְּמוּת Transliteration dĕmuwth Pronunciation dem·üth' (Key) Part of Speech adverb, feminine noun Root Word (Etymology) From דָּמָה (H1819) Dictionary Aids TWOT Reference: 437a KJV Translation Count — Total: 25x The KJV translates Strongs H1823 in the following manner: likeness (19x), similitude (2x), like (2x), manner (1x), fashion (1x). Outline of Biblical Usage [?] n f likeness, similitude adv in the likeness of, like as Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend) דְּמוּת dᵉmûwth, dem-ooth'; from H1819; resemblance; concretely, model, shape; adverbially, like:—fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude. Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

 

And nowhere does it mandate this be physical or outward.

As the Biblical Commentaries I quoted demonstrated these words are not restricted to the physical or outward appearance.  Copy/pasting the definitions is not helping your case, for there is nothing in the definitions that mandate they be only used for outward appearances.

This is made clear in the quotes I provided.

 

And even the opposite is claimed - for instance, for the definition of the word tselem you quoted:

• צֶלֶם tselem, tseh'-lem; from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure

So your post is making my point for me.

 

 

 

[other one]

7 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Theresa

What kind of body did Christ have before He was born of woman?

it says he was in the form of God....      can we decide what form God has.

[other one]

2 minutes ago, other one said:

it says he was in the form of God....      can we decide what form God has.

no we can't agree with that....

[thereselittleflower]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hi therese

I already explained why the physical body is not evil just by itself, because it's the heart that controls it.  The desires of the heart tell the body what to do whether they be good or evil.

Christ did no evil in his flesh.   He showed us that he could keep all of Gods commandments in the flesh.  He is our example on how to have self control.

The only thing I have a problem is providing scripture, and it is discounted.

Now does it say that we will be raised in a "flesh body" or a "spirit body"?

We can argue till the cows come home, but what does scripture say?

 

 

How does that work out when even the angels are spirit?  Christ is Lord over them.  He made them.

 Hebrews 1:7   And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire

 Hebrews 1:13   But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 1:14   Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

We don't worship a Lord that is human still, but one far above that.  Christ is different from Mohamad, Bhoda, Krishna etc.

 

John 4:24   God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

If Jesus is the express image of God then he is . . . . . .?

(a) Flesh

(b) Spirit

10 points for the right answer!

 

 

Didn't you say the angels could do it?  But you say Christ cannot?

 

It seems to me you are confusing "spirits" with "spiritual body."

The angels are spirits.   It does not say they have bodies.

 

WE HUMANS have bodies.   Our bodies will be changed from corruptible human bodies to incorruptible human bodies just like Jesus' natural human body was changed into an incorruptible human body; 

Our natural BODIES will be changed to spiritual BODIES.

Just because the words "spirit" and "spiritual" are being used to describe angels vs glorified man, that doesn't mean they are talking about the exact same thing.

One talks about SPIRITS.

The other talks about spiritual BODIES.

 

TWO DIFFERENT concepts and things.

 

When you say to me:

• "Didn't you say the angels could do it?  But you say Christ cannot?"
•  

This demonstrates to me you entirely missed the point of what I said.

It's not a matter of "can or can't"  -  it's a matter of it's a non issue because there is nothing to change.

 

Christ's body does not "change into a human body" because your body doesn't change into what it already is.

 

And I have to absolutely disagree with you.

Jesus is STILL FULLY HUMAN - will ALWAYS BE FULLY Human  - This will NEVER change.    He has not transcended humanity -  He has ELEVATED humanity INTO THE GODHEAD. 

This is beyond our comprehension, but it would do us great good to think on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shar]

5 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

That question is called a false dilemma.   It offers a false choice of answers and leaves out other possible answers.

It is a circular argument phrased as a question - it implicitly requires some assumptions are true, the very assumptions that are in dispute.   One does not use the claim one is trying to prove as the proof for itself.

The assumptions are these:

• 1) it is an assumption Christ existed before the Incarnation.  That is a false assumption.   God the Son existed before the incarnation.  Christ is the result of the incarnation.

  2) it is an assumption that God the Son had a body before the Incarnation.   There is no proof God the Son had a body before the Incarnation.

 

 

I believe your assumptions are not dogmatic.  We see that the Godhead has existed since eternity.  We see that during the creation process, regarding man they say, "Let US make man in OUR image".  We don't know at which time the God - Son relationship began.  We see in Psalm 2:7 and He. 1:5 that God says, "Your are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father."  At some point, and a point we cannot determine, the Godhead made this distinction so that the plan of salvation could eventually be carried out.

We cannot say that Jesus had a actual body before the Incarnation, but we do know that they could take human form and visit man before the actual incarnation.  Examples would be when He walked in the Garden of Eden and talked with Adam, when He appeared to Abraham and told him he would have a son.  When He came down before Sodom and Gomorrah, Ge.18, and even ate with Abraham. 

God's plan of salvation was from the beginning.  The gospel was and is eternal - Re. 14:6.  God knew that Adam would sin from the beginning and His plan of salvation was from the beginning. The incarnation was simply the point at which God took on the human form, and lived a life here on Earth as a Jew, in order to pay the wages of sin for all mankind.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Shar

[thereselittleflower]

21 minutes ago, Shar said:

I believe your assumptions are not dogmatic.  We see that the Godhead has existed since eternity.  We see that during the creation process, regarding man they say, "Let US make man in OUR image".  We don't know at which time the God - Son relationship began.  We see in Psalm 2:7 and He. 1:5 that God says, "Your are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father."  At some point, and a point we cannot determine, the Godhead made this distinction so that the plan of salvation could eventually be carried out.

We cannot say that Jesus had a actual body before the Incarnation, but we do know that they could take human form and visit man before the actual incarnation.  Examples would be when He walked in the Garden of Eden and talked with Adam, when He appeared to Abraham and told him he would have a son.  When He came down before Sodom and Gomorrah, Ge.18, and even ate with Abraham. 

God's plan of salvation was from the beginning.  The gospel was and is eternal - Re. 14:6.  God knew that Adam would sin from the beginning and His plan of salvation was from the beginning. The incarnation was simply the point at which God took on the human form, and lived a life here on Earth as a Jew, in order to pay the wages of sin for all mankind.

We have points of agreement and points of disagreement:

• We see that the Godhead has existed since eternity. 

Agreed

• We see that during the creation process, regarding man they say, "Let US make man in OUR image".

Yes, but as I have already shown, nothing demands this be referring to anything physical or outward.

•   We don't know at which time the God - Son relationship began. 

Yes we do.    God the Son is eternally pre-existing as God the Father is.

• We see in Psalm 2:7 and He. 1:5 that God says, "Your are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father."  At some point, and a point we cannot determine, the Godhead made this distinction so that the plan of salvation could eventually be carried out.

This is simply confusing the relationship between God the Father and God the Son with the INCARNATION.

• We cannot say that Jesus had a actual body before the Incarnation,

Jesus did not exist before the Incarnation, so Jesus could not have had a body before the Incarnation.

• But we do know that they could take human form and visit man before the actual incarnation. 

That is what is believed of the Persons of the Trinity, yes.

• The incarnation was simply the point at which God took on the human form, and lived a life here on Earth as a Jew, in order to pay the wages of sin for all mankind.

The Incarnation is when God BECAME man.     

The Incarnation is when God BECAME man for ALL of ETERNITY.

God BECAME man.

 

 

Again, 

 

Jesus is STILL FULLY HUMAN - will ALWAYS BE FULLY Human  - This will NEVER change.    He has not transcended humanity -  He has ELEVATED humanity INTO THE GODHEAD. 

This is beyond our comprehension, but it would do us great good to think on this.

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

There is a flesh body, which clothes the soul. There is a soul body, which clothes the (adamic) spirit. There is a spirit body, which clothes the breath-light. And that clothes the Life/Chayyim.

"Angels" of the different heavens have one or more of these bodies. For example, some angels have only one body "of flaming fire." Only man has all four bodies as part of his basic nature. (Which has made some angels jealous.) God, ever since the Incarnation, has taken as part of his nature a body of flesh. Before the Incarnation, he did not yet have the flesh body. He could assume one, like he did when he ate with Abraham, but that flesh was not of his nature, it was only a temporary garment.

When Jesus arose from the dead, he took his body with him, because it was a part of his nature. That body was "quickened" so that it could ascend into the heavenlies, yet it somehow still exists in some way that we cannot fully understand. But because it still exists, his quickened flesh body gives him greater power than any of the angels. As we will have when our bodies are quickened:

1 Cor. 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels?

[SINNERSAVED]

3 hours ago, Shar said:

I believe your assumptions are not dogmatic.  We see that the Godhead has existed since eternity.  We see that during the creation process, regarding man they say, "Let US make man in OUR image".  We don't know at which time the God - Son relationship began.  We see in Psalm 2:7 and He. 1:5 that God says, "Your are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father."  At some point, and a point we cannot determine, the Godhead made this distinction so that the plan of salvation could eventually be carried out.

We cannot say that Jesus had a actual body before the Incarnation, but we do know that they could take human form and visit man before the actual incarnation.  Examples would be when He walked in the Garden of Eden and talked with Adam, when He appeared to Abraham and told him he would have a son.  When He came down before Sodom and Gomorrah, Ge.18, and even ate with Abraham. 

God's plan of salvation was from the beginning.  The gospel was and is eternal - Re. 14:6.  God knew that Adam would sin from the beginning and His plan of salvation was from the beginning. The incarnation was simply the point at which God took on the human form, and lived a life here on Earth as a Jew, in order to pay the wages of sin for all mankind.

that was a great observation and well stated thank you for that,

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

There is a flesh body, which clothes the soul. There is a soul body, which clothes the (adamic) spirit. There is a spirit body, which clothes the breath-light. And that clothes the Life/Chayyim.

"Angels" of the different heavens have one or more of these bodies. For example, some angels have only one body "of flaming fire." Only man has all four bodies as part of his basic nature. (Which has made some angels jealous.) God, ever since the Incarnation, has taken as part of his nature a body of flesh. Before the Incarnation, he did not yet have the flesh body. He could assume one, like he did when he ate with Abraham, but that flesh was not of his nature, it was only a temporary garment.

When Jesus arose from the dead, he took his body with him, because it was a part of his nature. That body was "quickened" so that it could ascend into the heavenlies, yet it somehow still exists in some way that we cannot fully understand. But because it still exists, his quickened flesh body gives him greater power than any of the angels. As we will have when our bodies are quickened:

1 Cor. 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels?

WilliamL  I'm sorry, but Jesus always had greater power than the angels.  

He's God.

His power over the angels does not come because He became man and then rose from the dead.     His power over the angels comes from WHO He is -  God the Son.

We will judge the angels because of who WE are IN Christ.

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

29 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

WilliamL  I'm sorry, but Jesus always had greater power than the angels.  

Jesus was a son of Adam (as well as a son of God). Jesus was not in heaven "always." The Word was, but the Word was not incarnated before Jesus was born. Therefore this statement of yours is based upon a false premise.

If Jesus had such power from eternity, then the Psalm would not say,

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”