Is this timeline possible?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

When you say layers, do you mean overlapping? 

For example, do you see seal 1, trumpet 1 and bowl 1 all together, one at a time, before you move on to seal 2?

thanks for reading and for your positive comments. 

Spock

Hi Spock,

Hope the diagram helps you to see my view of the Tribulations -

- The Seals, give the beginning, Middle & End. (The first 4 seals, I see as the position of the great power blocs at the beginning of the tribulation).

- The Trumpets go right through.

- The Bowls are quite obviously in the second part of the (Great) tribulation.

 

(Note the diagram came out of alignment a bit.)

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Ezra]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

5. The 6th seal will then result in the rapture, and I haven't a clue how long after the abomination this will occur, but I do know this is why Rev 7 says "they (raptured saints) came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION. " 

Since the Great Tribulation is a consequence of the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation (Mt. 24:15-21), when the Antichrist is in full control, the Church has already been raptured before the 6th seal. To "come out" of the Great Tribulation means to have avoided it (although most people interpret it as having gone through it). Since the Great Tribulation is an expression of God's wrath, the Church AVOIDS this period on earth and is already in Heaven.

[Esther4:14]

17 hours ago, Spock said:

Greetings Fellow Saints,

I would love for you all to comment on this possible scenario I've been playing with. I'm omitting many details, just trying to get the big picture here, so bear with me.  This may be long, but I will try to get to the points I'm making. 

1. As a result of a Mid East war (psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38/39 maybe), the future antichrist and others will confirm or make a peace treaty with Israel.  There will be reasonable peace finally in that area. One of the terms of this agreement will allow for Israel to rebuild its Temple on the Mount.  This will also allow  for all religions to share and use the Temple Mount as they see fit.  The AC will not be revealed at this point and will not running things, just present and perhaps obvious by seeking Philadelphia Christians.  Daniels last 70th week commences.   I believe the Great Harlot of Rev 17 will be very important during this time riding the NWO.

2. At the midpoint of this week, the AC will be possessed by the Evil One and will finally arise and seek to be glorified. The False prophet will be by his side performing many signs and wonders to support this evil dude. This will result in Antiochus Ephihanes Part 2.  This abomination of desolation will commence the GREAT TRIBULATION. 

3. This abomination basically commences the opening of the seals, trumpets, and bowls in succession.  Thus, I'm thinking, is it possible for the entire 42 month period to contain all of these judgments, but I'm not dogmatic at all regarding the timing of the seals. They may be earlier than the abomination.   I would love feedback especially on this point.  I also believe the two witnesses will be present to give hope to the world,, but especially the Jews. 

4. Of course, Saints will now be persecuted and the AC economic buying plan will go into effect. I believe God will divinely protect the Philadelphia christians, but not by rapture, but rather by putting a hedge around them somehow (don't ask me, I haven't thought through that enough).

5. The 6th seal will then result in the rapture, and I haven't a clue how long after the abomination this will occur, but I do know this is why Rev 7 says "they (raptured saints) came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION. " 

6. Immediately after the rapture, the Day of the Lord occurs, and God unleashes his wrath, not mans wrath.  Of course, God promised the true church they would be spared his wrath, so the true church is now gone, while the pretenders remain to get it right with God.  The 144,000 Jews are sealed after the 6th seal so they too are protected. Bozrah, Jordan will be the place for Jews to go and hide and wait things out. 

7. Basically, once the seals, trumpets, and bowls play out, Christ will then return to defeat Satan and the AC at Armageddon and to establish his Millenium Kingdom.  The three evil Trinity will be imprisoned, and then we turn our attention to the sheep and goat judgment taking place.  Those people who did not take the mark of the beast and were kind to God's children will be allowed access to the kingdom in their physical bodies. Those who took the mark or were unkind are not allowed in. Bye bye. 

8. The true church will help Christ rule on the earth. Christ will rule for 1000 years, Satan will then be released from prison and rally many of the masses to his side again.  Another war, same result, we win, he loses, and this time, it is over.  The Great White Throne judgment is next, and all the nonbelievers will be judged and cast out. The rest is pure sweetness. Everyone will have a glorified body and we will all live with both Jesus and God the father. 

So, what do you think? I welcome any feedback, both pro and con.  I love to ponder this and I promise I will do so even if you disagree with me. My beliefs are not etched in stone, so I'm always open to receive new teaching. 

Thanks in love,

spock 

Hi Spock, 

 

I appreciate your pursuit of discussion.  I love studying prophecy myself.  However, for starters, I think it is only popular thinking to assume that someone is going to try to make a peace treaty with Israel.  In actuality, Israel is the one actively trying to establish a peace treaty with the Palestinians, which they are rejecting.  More than likely, the peace treaty will be with Christians because this is who the Antichrist will pursue persecuting-the followers of Christ, His only Son who was perfect and obedient to Him even choosing to accept death on a cross rather than separation through disobedience to Him.  More than likely, Israel will make the peace treaty with Christians in an effort to dominant them because many of them do not believe Christ is the Messiah; therefore, as Christians, we are all accepting a false teaching.  I do not wish to offend anyone, but when they say the church is guilty of replacement theology, what they mean to say is that Jesus is not their Messiah and does not replace the law of Moses.  Therefore, the New Covenant does not replace the Old Covenant like the New Testament teaches.  Just because someone is a Jew does not mean they have the same character as Abraham.  Therefore, I believe strongly that it is Israel that makes a peace treaty with Christians and will revoke this in the middle of the week.  This is not because the church replaces Israel, but because the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant.  

 

Aside from this, here is what I have come up as the result of the pursuit to understand the seals as a starting point.  When I was a new Christian in the year 2000, the Left Behind books were very popular and one of the first things that I noticed was they did not address the seals.  This was my first suspicion that the rapture theory was a flawed theory.  So, for a long time nothing else mattered buy understanding the seals.  It wasn't until about a year ago in my economics class that a picture developed as I was listening to a classic book on economics by Adam Smith called The Wealth of Nations.  As a side note, if anyone feels that some of these classic books are too difficult to read, I would suggest listening to them in audio book format.  Librivox provides a vast library of classic audio books for free.  I listened to the whole thing and with this information, I put together a theory that the first seal represented the mystery of lawlessness described in 2 Thessalonians 2:7.  I later added to this hypothesis when in discussion on a subject similar to this where the Holy Spirit brought to my attention a verse from John 17:12 " While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."  Jesus is referring to Judas as the son of perdition here, and as we can John 13:27 when Jesus tells Judas, "What you do, do quickly."  I believe there is a strong possibility that this is the opening of the first seal, or the rider on the white horse, or the mystery of lawlessness.  

 

  The Jacobins of the French Revolution and the evidence of yellow journalism during the Spanish-American war are two examples of how propaganda was used to persuade the public of the legitimacy of fighting war, “and make people kill each other,” (Revelation 6:4).  It is a distinction between the modern world and the ancient world.  The second seal, or the rider on the red horse, I believe represents the use of propaganda in creating wars.  

 

The scales represent our modern economic, I want to call it manipulation, because it is not evil in and of itself.  In book two, chapter one he says, “land, however improved, will yield no revenue without a circulating capital,” and this represents the third seal with the scales.The Wealth of Nations.  This represents what the prophecy is speaking of in regard to the scales.  The Ukraine is called the breadbasket of Europe, but under communism, people still lived in poverty without a circulating currency.  Like how the Ukraine was impoverished under communism.  It is more like a counterfeit system of economics because the seal indicates that someone has this knowledge and uses it against others and the ability to control where there is more or less currency; thus, creating the economic climate described by controlling the amount of currency in a given area.  It is more like the presence of dishonest scales rather than a flawed system of economics (Proverbs 11:1). 

 

The fourth seal is sent south according to Zechariah 6:6, and Revelation 6:8 says, “They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.”  We can see the evidence in the present state of Africa, for example.  They have wars caused by corruption, AIDS continue to kill people every day.  They also struggle in this region to maintain consistent food supplies as the continent contains large desert regions that are unable to farm.  As a result of this, the same dangers exist with the surrounding wildlife like lions and other beasts.  The continent is still considered a developing country. 

Then we have the witnesses wondering how long until they see justice in seal five, which could be happening right now considering the way we all talk about prophecy.  It is as though when we are having these discussions about rapture, preterism, what have you; what we really want to say is, “how much longer Lord.”  How much longer till there is justice for what we know as Christians is wrong.   It is as though when we are having these discussions about rapture, preterism, what have you; what we really want to say is, “how much longer Lord.” 

  Then, there is the sixth seal and the sun turns black like sackcloth (Revelation 6:12), which you can pair with Revelation 11:3 when the witnesses come dressed in sackcloth, which gives a time reference of 1260 days, which you can compare with Revelation 13:5 which says that the beast will reign for the same amount of time as the two witnesses suggesting that all of these things will happen together; which have not happened yet.

 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness,” (Psalm 103:8).Or, could we all use a reminder when addressing the subject of prophecy that “  Now, I know that some people like to combine all of these things, but I think that when we do that, we need to really look around us and see the suffering that is happening right now and ask ourselves, do we really think it will get worse than this?

We are not all waiting around this forum for it to get started!  I do believe we are almost finished!

"Many, Lord, are asking, “Who will bring us prosperity?”
    Let the light of your face shine on us.
⁷ Fill my heart with joy
    when their grain and new wine abound.

⁸ In peace I will lie down and sleep,
    for you alone, Lord,
    make me dwell in safety." (Psalm 4:6-8).  

 

(as a side note, I wrote this on Word so I wouldn't lose it in case my internet went out, which I am having trouble with lately.  When I tried to transfer it, the formatting looks real weird and I don't know why.  I tried to fix it as best I could.  I am sorry if some portions do not make sense.)

[Sister]

Quote

6. Immediately after the rapture, the Day of the Lord occurs, and God unleashes his wrath, not mans wrath.  Of course, God promised the true church they would be spared his wrath, so the true church is now gone, while the pretenders remain to get it right with God.  The 144,000 Jews are sealed after the 6th seal so they too are protected. Bozrah, Jordan will be the place for Jews to go and hide and wait things out. 

Hi spock

The 144,000 are sealed before the wrath begins.  Just before the 1st trumpet/vial.

  Revelation 7:1   And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

  Revelation 7:2   And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

  Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

So they are sealed before the 6th seal.

[ARGOSY]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

       Overview of the Tribulation.

 

 

    7 Seals.

   (1234)                       5                6          7 (Christ)

                                

   _I____________I_____________I____

             3 ½ years                         3 ½ years

 

                                                                                

     7 Trumpets

1      2     3    4         5                     6             7  

                               (woe)                (woe)      (woe)

                                  1  2  3  4  5  6     7 (Bowls)

 

 

1. 1/3 of earth, trees, grass burnt up.                         

2. 1/3 of sea (blood), sea creatures (die) ships.

3. 1/3 of rivers, springs bitter, many men die.  

4. 1/3 of sun, moon & stars, darkened.                 

5.  Demons torturing those without Seal.

6. Great army – kill 1/3 of mankind. 

   7.Christ`s return. Gt Earthquake & Armageddon.                    

 

 

Nice breakdown Marilyn!    I don't agree with it all, but I can work with your well laid out and researched sequence. Don't sue me for plagiarism                           

                                  

 hundreds of years                                       3 ½ years                           2nd Coming                millenium

                                                   I                                                                            I

                                                                                

  7 Seals   1    2     3     4                             5                          6  7

 

7 Trumpets                                     1      2      3       4                  5          6     7  

                                                                                             (woe)  (woe) (woe)

                                                                       

7  Bowls                                                                                 1 2 3 4 5 6   7 

 

            

[Marilyn C]

Hi Argosy,

By all means, have a go, bro. But of course we would need to see scriptures as per `100`s of years. Nearly time to start a new thread unless Spock lets us widen this.

Marilyn.

[ARGOSY]

13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Argosy,

By all means, have a go, bro. But of course we would need to see scriptures as per `100`s of years. Nearly time to start a new thread unless Spock lets us widen this.

Marilyn.

I won't even argue with you Marilyn    there is so little biblical information about the horses, the logic becomes that of conjecture instead of evidence.   Or should we say that of spiritual inspiration, in which case I'm always right     haha

[Spock]

I'm not sure why you two feel you don't have to make the seals, trumpets, and bowls all consecutively.  I was taught to interpret prophetic scripture using this model: if it makes sense, use the literal translation.  It seems to make sense to me to keep them consecutive.

so why do you two feel you don't have to do that here?  Convince me starting now.......

spock open to receive

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Argosy,

By all means, have a go, bro. But of course we would need to see scriptures as per `100`s of years. Nearly time to start a new thread unless Spock lets us widen this.

Marilyn.

You have my blessing to widen. Thanks for asking.

[Spock]

5 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

Hi Spock, 

 

I appreciate your pursuit of discussion.  I love studying prophecy myself.  However, for starters, I think it is only popular thinking to assume that someone is going to try to make a peace treaty with Israel.  In actuality, Israel is the one actively trying to establish a peace treaty with the Palestinians, which they are rejecting.  More than likely, the peace treaty will be with Christians because this is who the Antichrist will pursue persecuting-the followers of Christ, His only Son who was perfect and obedient to Him even choosing to accept death on a cross rather than separation through disobedience to Him.  More than likely, Israel will make the peace treaty with Christians in an effort to dominant them because many of them do not believe Christ is the Messiah; therefore, as Christians, we are all accepting a false teaching.  I do not wish to offend anyone, but when they say the church is guilty of replacement theology, what they mean to say is that Jesus is not their Messiah and does not replace the law of Moses.  Therefore, the New Covenant does not replace the Old Covenant like the New Testament teaches.  Just because someone is a Jew does not mean they have the same character as Abraham.  Therefore, I believe strongly that it is Israel that makes a peace treaty with Christians and will revoke this in the middle of the week.  This is not because the church replaces Israel, but because the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant.  

 

Aside from this, here is what I have come up as the result of the pursuit to understand the seals as a starting point.  When I was a new Christian in the year 2000, the Left Behind books were very popular and one of the first things that I noticed was they did not address the seals.  This was my first suspicion that the rapture theory was a flawed theory.  So, for a long time nothing else mattered buy understanding the seals.  It wasn't until about a year ago in my economics class that a picture developed as I was listening to a classic book on economics by Adam Smith called The Wealth of Nations.  As a side note, if anyone feels that some of these classic books are too difficult to read, I would suggest listening to them in audio book format.  Librivox provides a vast library of classic audio books for free.  I listened to the whole thing and with this information, I put together a theory that the first seal represented the mystery of lawlessness described in 2 Thessalonians 2:7.  I later added to this hypothesis when in discussion on a subject similar to this where the Holy Spirit brought to my attention a verse from John 17:12 " While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."  Jesus is referring to Judas as the son of perdition here, and as we can John 13:27 when Jesus tells Judas, "What you do, do quickly."  I believe there is a strong possibility that this is the opening of the first seal, or the rider on the white horse, or the mystery of lawlessness.  

 

  The Jacobins of the French Revolution and the evidence of yellow journalism during the Spanish-American war are two examples of how propaganda was used to persuade the public of the legitimacy of fighting war, “and make people kill each other,” (Revelation 6:4).  It is a distinction between the modern world and the ancient world.  The second seal, or the rider on the red horse, I believe represents the use of propaganda in creating wars.  

 

The scales represent our modern economic, I want to call it manipulation, because it is not evil in and of itself.  In book two, chapter one he says, “land, however improved, will yield no revenue without a circulating capital,” and this represents the third seal with the scales.The Wealth of Nations.  This represents what the prophecy is speaking of in regard to the scales.  The Ukraine is called the breadbasket of Europe, but under communism, people still lived in poverty without a circulating currency.  Like how the Ukraine was impoverished under communism.  It is more like a counterfeit system of economics because the seal indicates that someone has this knowledge and uses it against others and the ability to control where there is more or less currency; thus, creating the economic climate described by controlling the amount of currency in a given area.  It is more like the presence of dishonest scales rather than a flawed system of economics (Proverbs 11:1). 

 

The fourth seal is sent south according to Zechariah 6:6, and Revelation 6:8 says, “They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.”  We can see the evidence in the present state of Africa, for example.  They have wars caused by corruption, AIDS continue to kill people every day.  They also struggle in this region to maintain consistent food supplies as the continent contains large desert regions that are unable to farm.  As a result of this, the same dangers exist with the surrounding wildlife like lions and other beasts.  The continent is still considered a developing country. 

Then we have the witnesses wondering how long until they see justice in seal five, which could be happening right now considering the way we all talk about prophecy.  It is as though when we are having these discussions about rapture, preterism, what have you; what we really want to say is, “how much longer Lord.”  How much longer till there is justice for what we know as Christians is wrong.   It is as though when we are having these discussions about rapture, preterism, what have you; what we really want to say is, “how much longer Lord.” 

  Then, there is the sixth seal and the sun turns black like sackcloth (Revelation 6:12), which you can pair with Revelation 11:3 when the witnesses come dressed in sackcloth, which gives a time reference of 1260 days, which you can compare with Revelation 13:5 which says that the beast will reign for the same amount of time as the two witnesses suggesting that all of these things will happen together; which have not happened yet.

 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness,” (Psalm 103:8).Or, could we all use a reminder when addressing the subject of prophecy that “  Now, I know that some people like to combine all of these things, but I think that when we do that, we need to really look around us and see the suffering that is happening right now and ask ourselves, do we really think it will get worse than this?

We are not all waiting around this forum for it to get started!  I do believe we are almost finished!

"Many, Lord, are asking, “Who will bring us prosperity?”
    Let the light of your face shine on us.
⁷ Fill my heart with joy
    when their grain and new wine abound.

⁸ In peace I will lie down and sleep,
    for you alone, Lord,
    make me dwell in safety." (Psalm 4:6-8).  

 

(as a side note, I wrote this on Word so I wouldn't lose it in case my internet went out, which I am having trouble with lately.  When I tried to transfer it, the formatting looks real weird and I don't know why.  I tried to fix it as best I could.  I am sorry if some portions do not make sense.)

Thanks Esther for both reading my thread and for sharing your analysis of the seals. Very interesting take indeed.  Thanks also for the tip on reading Adam Smith's classic book.  Maybe someday when I get through all these prophecy books I will get around to that book.  Cheers.

spock waving hi