pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Esther4:14]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Please note again good exegetical scholarship agrees with this statement that the Church is not seen from Rev 4 - Rev 19... Love, Steven

 

Would you please quote this good exegetical scholarship so that I could review their statement of faith suggesting that the church is not seen from Revelation 4-19.  However, clearly it would not be seen in Revelation 17-19 because those pertain to when Babylon has fallen, but how it can be assumed that when the Revelation begins to explain how the scroll and the seals are opened between Revelation 5-6, that this represents that the church is no longer present from this point forth.  It just doesn't.  

I would like the opportunity to review whatever is giving you the confidence you have in this theory if i may.  

[Paradigm]

37 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

Would you please quote this good exegetical scholarship so that I could review their statement of faith suggesting that the church is not seen from Revelation 4-19.  However, clearly it would not be seen in Revelation 17-19 because those pertain to when Babylon has fallen, but how it can be assumed that when the Revelation begins to explain how the scroll and the seals are opened between Revelation 5-6, that this represents that the church is no longer present from this point forth.  It just doesn't.  

I would like the opportunity to review whatever is giving you the confidence you have in this theory if i may.  

Good points Esther. The rest of my comments are not directed toward you Esther. 

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Thought of these scriptures. 

Revelation 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Again, it appears that it would be good to consider the way in which terms our now understood. Many people believe that "The Church" began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts. Never mind for time being that Pentecost is the Greek name for Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) and that is why they were all there that day.

"The Church" has been around for a long time. It can even be seen in places in English.

Acts 7:38  This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

If we take "church" back to the Greek ecclesia, we can then make some comparisons. The LXX or Septuagint is the Greek translation of the OT/Tanahk. The Hebrew word "kahal" is translated as "ecclesia." The same word "ecclesia" that is translated as "church" is throughout the LXX.

Not only was "the church" around in the Tanakh/OT, so was the gospel. It is not the 2,000 year old gospel, but the everlasting gospel.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

This same everlasting gospel was preached unto Abraham.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The gospel was also preached unto the Children of Israel.

Hebrews 4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.² For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Neither did the Messiah first come into existence 2.000 years ago. For Moses esteemed the reproach of Messiah greater than what Egypt had to offer. 

Hebrews 11:24-26  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; ²⁵ Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; ²⁶ Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

 

Not only Moses, but the prophets spoke by the "Spirit of Messiah."

 

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Children of Israel were no stranger to the Messiah either:

1 Corinthains 10:1-9

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; ² And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

³ And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

⁴ And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

⁵ But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

⁶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

⁷ Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

⁸ Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

⁹ Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

So in summary:

• The Church was all through the OT
• The Gospel is an everlasting Gospel
• The Gospel was preached unto Abraham
• The Gospel was preached unto the Children of Israel.
• Moses esteemed greatly the reproach of Messiah
• The prophets spoke by the Spirit of Messiah.
• The Children of Israel ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink as us, for they drank of the Rock that was Messiah.
• However, some of the children of Israel tempted Messiah. 

There are many passages throughout scripture that just do not conform to a dispensational world view. 

 

[Last Daze]

35 minutes ago, Paradigm said:

So in summary:

• The Church was all through the OT
• The Gospel is an everlasting Gospel
• The Gospel was preached unto Abraham
• The Gospel was preached unto the Children of Israel.
• Moses esteemed greatly the reproach of Messiah
• The prophets spoke by the Spirit of Messiah.
• The Children of Israel ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink as us, for they drank of the Rock that was Messiah.
• However, some of the children of Israel tempted Messiah. 

There are many passages throughout scripture that just do not conform to a dispensational world view. 

Good post!  So true and plainly stated.

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

Would you please quote this good exegetical scholarship so that I could review their statement of faith suggesting that the church is not seen from Revelation 4-19.  However, clearly it would not be seen in Revelation 17-19 because those pertain to when Babylon has fallen, but how it can be assumed that when the Revelation begins to explain how the scroll and the seals are opened between Revelation 5-6, that this represents that the church is no longer present from this point forth.  It just doesn't.  

I would like the opportunity to review whatever is giving you the confidence you have in this theory if i may.  

your kidding right?

Mt 16:18 Mt 18:17 Mt 18:17 Ac 2:47 Ac 5:11 -Ac 7:38 Ac 8:1 Ac 8:3 Ac 9:31 Ac 11:22 Ac 11:26 Ac 12:1 Ac 12:5 Ac 13:1 Ac 14:23
Ac 14:27 Ac 15:3 Ac 15:4 Ac 15:22 Ac 15:41 Ac 16:5 Ac 18:22 Ac 19:32 Ac 19:39 Ac 19:41 Ac 20:17 Ac 20:28 Ro 16:1 Ro 16:4
Ro 16:5 Ro 16:16 Ro 16:23 1 Co 1:2 1 Co 4:17 1 Co 6:4 1 Co 7:17 1 Co 10:32 1 Co 11:16 1 Co 11:18 1 Co 11:22 1 Co 12:28 1 Co 14:4
1 Co 14:5 1 Co 14:12 1 Co 14:19 1 Co 14:23 1 Co 14:28 1 Co 14:33  1 Co 14:34 1 Co 14:35 1 Co 15:9 1 Co 16:1 1 Co 16:19 1 Co 16:19 2 Co 1:1
2 Co 8:1 2 Co 8:18 2 Co 8:19 2 Co 8:23 2 Co 8:24 2 Co 11:8 2 Co 11:28 2 Co 12:13 Gal 1:2 Gal 1:13 Gal 1:22 Eph 1:22 Eph 3:10 Eph 3:21
Eph 5:23 Eph 5:24 Eph 5:25 Eph 5:27 Eph 5:29 Eph 5:32 Php 3:6 Php 4:15  Col 1:18 Col 1:24 Col 4:15 Col 4:16 1 Th 1:1 1 Th 2:14
2 Th 1:1 2 Th 1:4 1 Ti 3:5 1 Ti 3:15 1 Ti 5:16 Phm 2 Heb 2:12 Heb 12:23 Jas 5:14 1 Pe 5:13 3 Jn 6 3 Jn 9 3 Jn 10

Rv 1:4
Rv 1:11
Rv 1:20
Rv 1:20
Rv 2:1
Rv 2:7
Rv 2:8
Rv 2:11
Rv 2:12
Rv 2:17
Rv 2:18
Rv 2:23
Rv 2:29
Rv 3:1
Rv 3:6
Rv 3:7
Rv 3:13
Rv 3:14
Rv 3:22

Note just as I exegetically said no mention!

Rv 22:16
Love, Steven

[Paradigm]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Good post!  So true and plainly stated

Thank you Last Daze. 

[enoob57]

4 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Outside of Revelation John mentions the word church only 3 times (3 Jn 6; 3 jn 9 and 3 jn 10)

Are we then to conclude by your sound "exegetical scholarship" that Titus, Hebrew, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude, do not mention the word “Church”. Therefore the church is not present?

Wonderful scholarship you bring to the table.

 

I am not sure if you know how glaring your mistakes are but we do   Love, Steven

[SINNERSAVED]

10 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Granted in the entirety of Hebrews church is mentioned twice - where is the church most of the times in Hebrews?

1 peter 5:13 the word ekklésia is not mentioned in the original language

So pray tell who exactly is "She" who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark." ????

the church after revelation  chapter # is not mentioned, because there is no more churches, it is the spirit filled saints,  and we are the church ?

and this is what takes place, for the churches are no more, and you have filled spirited saints,. we are the temple and the spirit dwells with in, it is not a building , so no one can say other wise ? that is the truth and that's what you see being address from there on ?

blessings

[SINNERSAVED]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Exactly God isnt rapturing buildings now is he

that's right , !! many want to over look this ,and keep the rapture theory going to continue to be deceived, this is why its a very dangerous doctrine, and false teaching, for souls are in the balance ? but people do not see how important this is , it could ,and will cost many people there lives ,  just on this belief alone,

no one wants to listen to warnings , in the end times, blessing to you inchrist

[SINNERSAVED]

3 minutes ago, inchrist said:

They love their lives too much.....through out Revelation we see the Body of Christ being pierced.

Rev 1:7

Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

Amen Brother blessings to you , the eyes are blinded and satan  has got them right where he wants them, they refuse to see?

[Esther4:14]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

your kidding right?

Mt 16:18 Mt 18:17 Mt 18:17 Ac 2:47 Ac 5:11 -Ac 7:38 Ac 8:1 Ac 8:3 Ac 9:31 Ac 11:22 Ac 11:26 Ac 12:1 Ac 12:5 Ac 13:1 Ac 14:23
Ac 14:27 Ac 15:3 Ac 15:4 Ac 15:22 Ac 15:41 Ac 16:5 Ac 18:22 Ac 19:32 Ac 19:39 Ac 19:41 Ac 20:17 Ac 20:28 Ro 16:1 Ro 16:4
Ro 16:5 Ro 16:16 Ro 16:23 1 Co 1:2 1 Co 4:17 1 Co 6:4 1 Co 7:17 1 Co 10:32 1 Co 11:16 1 Co 11:18 1 Co 11:22 1 Co 12:28 1 Co 14:4
1 Co 14:5 1 Co 14:12 1 Co 14:19 1 Co 14:23 1 Co 14:28 1 Co 14:33  1 Co 14:34 1 Co 14:35 1 Co 15:9 1 Co 16:1 1 Co 16:19 1 Co 16:19 2 Co 1:1
2 Co 8:1 2 Co 8:18 2 Co 8:19 2 Co 8:23 2 Co 8:24 2 Co 11:8 2 Co 11:28 2 Co 12:13 Gal 1:2 Gal 1:13 Gal 1:22 Eph 1:22 Eph 3:10 Eph 3:21
Eph 5:23 Eph 5:24 Eph 5:25 Eph 5:27 Eph 5:29 Eph 5:32 Php 3:6 Php 4:15  Col 1:18 Col 1:24 Col 4:15 Col 4:16 1 Th 1:1 1 Th 2:14
2 Th 1:1 2 Th 1:4 1 Ti 3:5 1 Ti 3:15 1 Ti 5:16 Phm 2 Heb 2:12 Heb 12:23 Jas 5:14 1 Pe 5:13 3 Jn 6 3 Jn 9 3 Jn 10

Rv 1:4
Rv 1:11
Rv 1:20
Rv 1:20
Rv 2:1
Rv 2:7
Rv 2:8
Rv 2:11
Rv 2:12
Rv 2:17
Rv 2:18
Rv 2:23
Rv 2:29
Rv 3:1
Rv 3:6
Rv 3:7
Rv 3:13
Rv 3:14
Rv 3:22

Note just as I exegetically said no mention!

Rv 22:16
Love, Steven

Your not serious are you? So, you are suggesting that the practically the whole book of 1 Corinthians proves the theory of rapture; however, countless numbers of people have read this same book and we are not in firm agreement on the subject.  If the book of 1 Corinthians so clearly states this, I would think we would all at least be on the same page with more minor differences separating individual opinions.

I would like a better explanation for how you have concluded that so much of 1 Corinthians proves the theory of rapture.